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Will D.
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      11-17-2004, 07:55 AM
I remember hearing the opinion that 16Mp was approximately the
equivalent of 35mm film. If so, Canon's there.

Opinions/comments?

Will D.

 
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Nunnya Bizniss
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      11-17-2004, 12:17 PM
"Will D." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:(E-Mail Removed):

> I remember hearing the opinion that 16Mp was approximately the
> equivalent of 35mm film. If so, Canon's there.
>
> Opinions/comments?
>
> Will D.
>
>


I was under the impression that it was more related to the size of the
imagine chip, being approx 24x36mm which is the frame size of the 35mm.

Obviously the pixel count helps, though.

And of course, I am open to correction.
 
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Ron Lacey
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      11-17-2004, 12:52 PM
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:17:11 -0600, Nunnya Bizniss
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>I was under the impression that it was more related to the size of the
>imagine chip, being approx 24x36mm which is the frame size of the 35mm.


The original 1Ds was also had a full frame 35mm chip. I suspect at
16mp the resolution of all practical purposes is very close to film.

Ron

Ron Lacey
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Gisle Hannemyr
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      11-17-2004, 02:29 PM
Ron Lacey <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:17:11 -0600, Nunnya Bizniss


>> I was under the impression that it was more related to the size of
>> the imagine chip, being approx 24x36mm which is the frame size of
>> the 35mm.


> The original 1Ds was also had a full frame 35mm chip. I suspect at
> 16mp the resolution of all practical purposes is very close to film.


The (computed) maximum resolution of original EOD 1Ds 11 Mpx sensor
was 56 lp/mm. With the EOS 1Ds MkII 16.6 MPx sensor, this is
increased to 69 lp/mm. The "actual" resolution of these sensors is
probably less than that. The resolution of 35mm film goes less than
50 lp/mm (for consumer grade negative colour film) - to well beyond
100 lp/mm (for fine grain pro b&w stock).

This means that while both cameras' sensors outperform /consumer/
film, digital still may need more megapixels than the 1Ds MkII
offers, before it can match the resolution of the best pro films
--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
================================================== ======================
When you say you live in the real world, which one are you referring to?
 
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Nunnya Bizniss
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      11-17-2004, 03:47 PM

> The (computed) maximum resolution of original EOD 1Ds 11 Mpx sensor
> was 56 lp/mm. With the EOS 1Ds MkII 16.6 MPx sensor, this is
> increased to 69 lp/mm. The "actual" resolution of these sensors is
> probably less than that. The resolution of 35mm film goes less than
> 50 lp/mm (for consumer grade negative colour film) - to well beyond
> 100 lp/mm (for fine grain pro b&w stock).
>
> This means that while both cameras' sensors outperform /consumer/
> film, digital still may need more megapixels than the 1Ds MkII
> offers, before it can match the resolution of the best pro films


What is your source for that info? I would like to learn more.
Also, lp/mm? Lines per mm?

 
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Gisle Hannemyr
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      11-17-2004, 04:05 PM
Nunnya Bizniss <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

>> The (computed) maximum resolution of original EOD 1Ds 11 Mpx sensor
>> was 56 lp/mm. With the EOS 1Ds MkII 16.6 MPx sensor, this is
>> increased to 69 lp/mm. The "actual" resolution of these sensors is
>> probably less than that. The resolution of 35mm film goes less than
>> 50 lp/mm (for consumer grade negative colour film) - to well beyond
>> 100 lp/mm (for fine grain pro b&w stock).
>>
>> This means that while both cameras' sensors outperform /consumer/
>> film, digital still may need more megapixels than the 1Ds MkII
>> offers, before it can match the resolution of the best pro films


> What is your source for that info?


Mostly manufacturer's specifications.

> I would like to learn more.


There are written thick books about this. Visit your library.

As for online sources - a good one is Norman Koren's website,
Start here: http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF1A.html
For a table of film data, see: http://creekin.net/films.htm

> Also, lp/mm? Lines per mm?


Line pairs per mm.

--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
================================================== ======================
When you say you live in the real world, which one are you referring to?
 
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Angus Manwaring
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      11-17-2004, 09:36 PM
On 17-Nov-04 12:17:11, Nunnya Bizniss said
>"Will D." <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:(E-Mail Removed):


>> I remember hearing the opinion that 16Mp was approximately the
>> equivalent of 35mm film. If so, Canon's there.
>>
>> Opinions/comments?
>>
>> Will D.
>>
>>


>I was under the impression that it was more related to the size of the
>imagine chip, being approx 24x36mm which is the frame size of the 35mm.


>Obviously the pixel count helps, though.


>And of course, I am open to correction.



It seems to me that the size of the chip is irrelevant, its how densely
populated it is with photo sites that matters, ie the resolution/image
size.

Does that sound reasonable?

All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)

I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html

 
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Will D.
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      11-18-2004, 12:04 AM
On 2004-11-17, Gisle Hannemyr <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> Ron Lacey <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:17:11 -0600, Nunnya Bizniss

>
>>> I was under the impression that it was more related to the size of
>>> the imagine chip, being approx 24x36mm which is the frame size of
>>> the 35mm.

>
>> The original 1Ds was also had a full frame 35mm chip. I suspect at
>> 16mp the resolution of all practical purposes is very close to film.

>
> The (computed) maximum resolution of original EOD 1Ds 11 Mpx sensor
> was 56 lp/mm. With the EOS 1Ds MkII 16.6 MPx sensor, this is
> increased to 69 lp/mm. The "actual" resolution of these sensors is
> probably less than that. The resolution of 35mm film goes less than
> 50 lp/mm (for consumer grade negative colour film) - to well beyond
> 100 lp/mm (for fine grain pro b&w stock).
>
> This means that while both cameras' sensors outperform /consumer/
> film, digital still may need more megapixels than the 1Ds MkII
> offers, before it can match the resolution of the best pro films


Sounds about right, IIRC. I suspect the upper limits are more
theoretical than practical, tho. Difference between laboratory test
results and what one can get in the field is the reality check here.
The finest grain film with the most expensive equipment still needs
technique most pros don't use outside the studio, AFAIK.

So what's the street price on the old 1Ds now?

Will D.

 
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Gardner
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      11-18-2004, 03:41 AM
In article <952.817T1157T12964828angus@angusm_antispem_.demon .co.uk>,
"Angus Manwaring" <angus@angusm_ANTISPEM_.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> It seems to me that the size of the chip is irrelevant, its how densely
> populated it is with photo sites that matters, ie the resolution/image
> size.
>


No, physical size is important:

(1) big sensor -> big photo-sites which are more sensitive and
are less affected by noise.

(2) big sensor -> low/no "multiplication factor" so your wide
angle lens is really wide-angle.

================================================== ==========
Gardner Buchanan <(E-Mail Removed)>
Ottawa, ON FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today.
 
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Douglas MacDonald
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      11-18-2004, 04:01 AM
Will D. wrote:
> I remember hearing the opinion that 16Mp was approximately the
> equivalent of 35mm film. If so, Canon's there.
>
> Opinions/comments?
>
> Will D.
>

All the previous posts carry with them the myth that all you can do with
a digital image is print it at it's initial resolution. This may be
(almost) correct for cheap sensors recording lots of noise but certainly
not for quality DSLR sensors.

The process of enlarging digital images is called "Interpolation". This
is the digital version of the old optical enlargers. My business
operates a digital print lab in Australia which specialises in enlarging
digital images.

I regularly enlarge 4, 5 and 6 Megapixel images to poster prints 24" x
30" and 36" with absolutely stunning results. At least one of the
responders to this thread seems to think the process is flawed and what
I do for a living cannot be done. Odd that, considering the electric
growth of my business in a rural region and the number of prints made by
others doing the same thing.

35mm film has a number of issues when converting to digital or enlarging
through diffused light and simply put, cannot be enlarged as cleanly or
as big as a digital image.

Digital images are nearly pure data. A scanned 35mm image has around 30%
noise (some as much as 60%) which has no value on the image except to
degrade it so... The attempts to compare a 8 or 16 Megapixel image with
a film image are all invalid by virtue of the finished print or picture
being the only truly valid comparison.

What I would like to hear is the purpose a 16 Megapixel image or a 35mm
image will serve. I always thought the purpose of a negative was to make
a print and it was that print which became the photograph.

When you consider a digital image, really it is just an electronic
negative (or positive). For it to become a photograph it too need to be
printed. It is the final print which matters, not the medium it is
produced from, therefore... I offer the suggestion that at 4 (four) mega
pixels, full frame DSLR cameras exceeded the (printable) resolution 35mm
film could be usefully printed at and now, all the additional pixels do
is bolster the advertising as true professional digital camera reach and
exceed previous boundaries of film.

Douglas
 
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