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Capture HD video directly from HDMI uncompressed

 
 
Smarty
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      02-21-2007, 03:02 PM
Blackmagic has introduced a very novel capture card called Intensity for
$249 which has an HDMI input and an HDMI output connector. It makes the
impressive claim of eliminating HDV compression penalties by directly
capturing uncompressed 1920 X 1080 HD video directly from HDV camcorders (at
least those which have an HDMI output port) as well as from other HD and SD
video sources. It offers a number of other impressive features as well, in
particular real-time down-conversion from HD into SD and the ability to sync
and switch 2 HDV camcorders with 2 cards in a studio setting. It provides
HDMI output to drive monitors, projectors, etc. Macs and PCs are supported,
but do require one newer PCI Express slot. It would appear to allow
off-the-air HD capture external to set-top boxes equipped with HDMI (and
DVI) outputs.

Since copyright materials could be captured and digitized, the advertising
plainly excludes protected content, and says the board will not be useful
for those purposes.

More info at: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/


 
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Jan Panteltje
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Posts: n/a

 
      02-22-2007, 01:12 PM
On a sunny day (Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:02:45 -0500) it happened "Smarty"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in <(E-Mail Removed)>:

>Blackmagic has introduced a very novel capture card called Intensity for
>$249 which has an HDMI input and an HDMI output connector. It makes the
>impressive claim of eliminating HDV compression penalties by directly
>capturing uncompressed 1920 X 1080 HD video directly from HDV camcorders (at
>least those which have an HDMI output port) as well as from other HD and SD
>video sources. It offers a number of other impressive features as well, in
>particular real-time down-conversion from HD into SD and the ability to sync
>and switch 2 HDV camcorders with 2 cards in a studio setting. It provides
>HDMI output to drive monitors, projectors, etc. Macs and PCs are supported,
>but do require one newer PCI Express slot. It would appear to allow
>off-the-air HD capture external to set-top boxes equipped with HDMI (and
>DVI) outputs.
>
>Since copyright materials could be captured and digitized, the advertising
>plainly excludes protected content, and says the board will not be useful
>for those purposes.
>
>More info at: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/


Hi, thank you for the interesting posting.
For 1920x1080 @ 25fps I was thinking about the transfer rate for the disk
system that is required.
Let's see:
1920 x 1080 x 25 x 24 (bit per pixel) / 8 = 155 520 000 bytes / second,
is about 155 MB /s (1 244 160 000 bps, or 1.24 Gbits / s)

It seems the disk system will have to be able to do about 200 MB/s sustained.

Not every harddisk will sustain this, I just looked around at the seagate
site for a usable disk...
It is not an interface issue (SATA or SCSI), SATA goes to 3Gb/s, but more
a drive issue.
Any comments?

 
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Smarty
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      02-22-2007, 07:35 PM
Jan,

What a refreshing and intelligent reply! I've done a bit of research on this
specific topic, and it appears that "Port Multiplication" with SATA drives
in a RAID is an available and more than adequate solution. The web link
cited below shows simple to achieve 230 MB/sec performance and offers a
solution up to around 265 MB/sec as well.


http://www.macgurus.com/productpages...ationGuide.php

This will certainly fill disk drives quickly!!

Given that cable boxes and satellite boxes are not generally providing HDCP
over HDMI, this would appear to be an alternative method to directly capture
cable and satellite HDTV at full resolution.

Smarty



"Jan Panteltje" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:erk4r3$kgk$(E-Mail Removed)...
> On a sunny day (Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:02:45 -0500) it happened "Smarty"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>
>>Blackmagic has introduced a very novel capture card called Intensity for
>>$249 which has an HDMI input and an HDMI output connector. It makes the
>>impressive claim of eliminating HDV compression penalties by directly
>>capturing uncompressed 1920 X 1080 HD video directly from HDV camcorders
>>(at
>>least those which have an HDMI output port) as well as from other HD and
>>SD
>>video sources. It offers a number of other impressive features as well, in
>>particular real-time down-conversion from HD into SD and the ability to
>>sync
>>and switch 2 HDV camcorders with 2 cards in a studio setting. It provides
>>HDMI output to drive monitors, projectors, etc. Macs and PCs are
>>supported,
>>but do require one newer PCI Express slot. It would appear to allow
>>off-the-air HD capture external to set-top boxes equipped with HDMI (and
>>DVI) outputs.
>>
>>Since copyright materials could be captured and digitized, the advertising
>>plainly excludes protected content, and says the board will not be useful
>>for those purposes.
>>
>>More info at: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

>
> Hi, thank you for the interesting posting.
> For 1920x1080 @ 25fps I was thinking about the transfer rate for the disk
> system that is required.
> Let's see:
> 1920 x 1080 x 25 x 24 (bit per pixel) / 8 = 155 520 000 bytes / second,
> is about 155 MB /s (1 244 160 000 bps, or 1.24 Gbits / s)
>
> It seems the disk system will have to be able to do about 200 MB/s
> sustained.
>
> Not every harddisk will sustain this, I just looked around at the seagate
> site for a usable disk...
> It is not an interface issue (SATA or SCSI), SATA goes to 3Gb/s, but more
> a drive issue.
> Any comments?
>



 
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Jan Panteltje
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Posts: n/a

 
      02-22-2007, 08:14 PM
On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:35:11 -0500) it happened "Smarty"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in <(E-Mail Removed)>:

>Jan,
>
>What a refreshing and intelligent reply! I've done a bit of research on this
>specific topic, and it appears that "Port Multiplication" with SATA drives
>in a RAID is an available and more than adequate solution. The web link
>cited below shows simple to achieve 230 MB/sec performance and offers a
>solution up to around 265 MB/sec as well.
>
>
>http://www.macgurus.com/productpages...ationGuide.php
>
>This will certainly fill disk drives quickly!!
>
>Given that cable boxes and satellite boxes are not generally providing HDCP
>over HDMI, this would appear to be an alternative method to directly capture
>cable and satellite HDTV at full resolution.
>
>Smarty


Good info, thank you, good to know somebody already did all this..
Yes, it will take a lot of space:
at 200 MB / s for 90 minutes 90 x 60 x 200 = 1 080 000 MB say 1.1 Tera Byte.
That is if you wanted to record a movie.
It would not be so good if you recorded from a settop box, or even from a DVD player,
as the source would be mpeg2 or similar, and that is better recorded as .ps or
transport stream, taking much less space.
But for directly from a HD camera it is the right stuff.
Then you need more space for editing, at least double the space, 10TB would be nice.
Now let's extrapolate a bit:
In the 1980 ties we were at 10MB for a harddisk.
Now, say 20 years later, we are at 500 MB.
A factor 50 in 20 years.
So perhaps 10 years from now we have the 12 TB harddisks....
In 5 years from now the 6 TB, and that would be enough already.
Just to know where it will go :-)


 
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Gene
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Posts: n/a

 
      02-22-2007, 08:50 PM
You can get ~ 90+ minutes (~20GB) on a MiniDV camcorder tape:-)
Wonder if that would be enough to make the movie
look OK? It's probably a little better than a double
sided DVD.

$400 for a 1TB sounds like a fair price:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01...first_1tb_hdd/


Gene





"Jan Panteltje" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:erktje$h07$(E-Mail Removed)...
> On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:35:11 -0500) it happened "Smarty"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>
>>Jan,
>>
>>What a refreshing and intelligent reply! I've done a bit of research on
>>this
>>specific topic, and it appears that "Port Multiplication" with SATA drives
>>in a RAID is an available and more than adequate solution. The web link
>>cited below shows simple to achieve 230 MB/sec performance and offers a
>>solution up to around 265 MB/sec as well.
>>
>>
>>http://www.macgurus.com/productpages...ationGuide.php
>>
>>This will certainly fill disk drives quickly!!
>>
>>Given that cable boxes and satellite boxes are not generally providing
>>HDCP
>>over HDMI, this would appear to be an alternative method to directly
>>capture
>>cable and satellite HDTV at full resolution.
>>
>>Smarty

>
> Good info, thank you, good to know somebody already did all this..
> Yes, it will take a lot of space:
> at 200 MB / s for 90 minutes 90 x 60 x 200 = 1 080 000 MB say 1.1 Tera
> Byte.
> That is if you wanted to record a movie.
> It would not be so good if you recorded from a settop box, or even from a
> DVD player,
> as the source would be mpeg2 or similar, and that is better recorded as
> .ps or
> transport stream, taking much less space.
> But for directly from a HD camera it is the right stuff.
> Then you need more space for editing, at least double the space, 10TB
> would be nice.
> Now let's extrapolate a bit:
> In the 1980 ties we were at 10MB for a harddisk.
> Now, say 20 years later, we are at 500 MB.
> A factor 50 in 20 years.
> So perhaps 10 years from now we have the 12 TB harddisks....
> In 5 years from now the 6 TB, and that would be enough already.
> Just to know where it will go :-)
>
>



 
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Smarty
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      02-22-2007, 08:58 PM
Jan,

This HDMI adapter does offer a "back-door" type of access to the cable and
satellite content which could otherwise be difficult or impossible to gain
access to / extract in mpeg2/mpeg4/H.264 .ps or .ts streams given the way
the content cartel works and cable/satellite hardware is designed.
Recompression from the HDMI capture down to a BluRay or HD DVD compliant
format would be inefficient and risk artifacts and image quality loss, but
may be the only way to capture and then economically archive this type of
programming. Alternately, perhaps the cable and satellite providers will
offer burners in their HD PVRs. Time will tell.

Since a 1 TB drive has already been announced, holding ~90 minutes of this
raw content, I would think the time is almost immediate when a very usable
somewhat modestly priced NLE could be built. Blackmagic identifies Adobe
Premiere Pro, Final Cut, and other software as already being up to the task.
Looks like a new and interesting next frontier.

Smarty


"Jan Panteltje" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:erktje$h07$(E-Mail Removed)...
> On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:35:11 -0500) it happened "Smarty"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>
>>Jan,
>>
>>What a refreshing and intelligent reply! I've done a bit of research on
>>this
>>specific topic, and it appears that "Port Multiplication" with SATA drives
>>in a RAID is an available and more than adequate solution. The web link
>>cited below shows simple to achieve 230 MB/sec performance and offers a
>>solution up to around 265 MB/sec as well.
>>
>>
>>http://www.macgurus.com/productpages...ationGuide.php
>>
>>This will certainly fill disk drives quickly!!
>>
>>Given that cable boxes and satellite boxes are not generally providing
>>HDCP
>>over HDMI, this would appear to be an alternative method to directly
>>capture
>>cable and satellite HDTV at full resolution.
>>
>>Smarty

>
> Good info, thank you, good to know somebody already did all this..
> Yes, it will take a lot of space:
> at 200 MB / s for 90 minutes 90 x 60 x 200 = 1 080 000 MB say 1.1 Tera
> Byte.
> That is if you wanted to record a movie.
> It would not be so good if you recorded from a settop box, or even from a
> DVD player,
> as the source would be mpeg2 or similar, and that is better recorded as
> .ps or
> transport stream, taking much less space.
> But for directly from a HD camera it is the right stuff.
> Then you need more space for editing, at least double the space, 10TB
> would be nice.
> Now let's extrapolate a bit:
> In the 1980 ties we were at 10MB for a harddisk.
> Now, say 20 years later, we are at 500 MB.
> A factor 50 in 20 years.
> So perhaps 10 years from now we have the 12 TB harddisks....
> In 5 years from now the 6 TB, and that would be enough already.
> Just to know where it will go :-)
>
>



 
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Frank
Guest
Posts: n/a

 
      02-22-2007, 09:01 PM
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:12:00 GMT, in 'rec.video.production',
in article <Re: Capture HD video directly from HDMI uncompressed>,
Jan Panteltje <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:02:45 -0500) it happened "Smarty"
><(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>
>>Blackmagic has introduced a very novel capture card called Intensity for
>>$249 which has an HDMI input and an HDMI output connector. It makes the
>>impressive claim of eliminating HDV compression penalties by directly
>>capturing uncompressed 1920 X 1080 HD video directly from HDV camcorders (at
>>least those which have an HDMI output port) as well as from other HD and SD
>>video sources. It offers a number of other impressive features as well, in
>>particular real-time down-conversion from HD into SD and the ability to sync
>>and switch 2 HDV camcorders with 2 cards in a studio setting. It provides
>>HDMI output to drive monitors, projectors, etc. Macs and PCs are supported,
>>but do require one newer PCI Express slot. It would appear to allow
>>off-the-air HD capture external to set-top boxes equipped with HDMI (and
>>DVI) outputs.
>>
>>Since copyright materials could be captured and digitized, the advertising
>>plainly excludes protected content, and says the board will not be useful
>>for those purposes.
>>
>>More info at: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

>
>Hi, thank you for the interesting posting.
>For 1920x1080 @ 25fps I was thinking about the transfer rate for the disk
>system that is required.
>Let's see:
>1920 x 1080 x 25 x 24 (bit per pixel) / 8 = 155 520 000 bytes / second,
>is about 155 MB /s (1 244 160 000 bps, or 1.24 Gbits / s)


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (or if after 24 hours straight
I really do need some sleep), but I believe that it's 4:2:2 not 4:4:4,
so it's not 24 bits per pixel.

>It seems the disk system will have to be able to do about 200 MB/s sustained.
>
>Not every harddisk will sustain this, I just looked around at the seagate
>site for a usable disk...
>It is not an interface issue (SATA or SCSI), SATA goes to 3Gb/s, but more
>a drive issue.
>Any comments?


As above.

--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/
 
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Smarty
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Posts: n/a

 
      02-22-2007, 09:04 PM
Gene,

HDV does a pretty good job of it on a minDV tape, and 80 minute tapes for
HDV are on the market now. Not sure if you can pump HDMI video into an HDV
camcorder and have it record in HDV. If so, then capturing HD via the HDMI
port using the Blackmagic and then copying it to a miniDV with a camcorder
would be a sweet little archiving solution at relatively low cost. Nice to
see the Blackmagic has both HDMI IN and HDMI OUT ports. :-)

Smarty


"Gene" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:cnnDh.9$(E-Mail Removed)...
> You can get ~ 90+ minutes (~20GB) on a MiniDV camcorder tape:-)
> Wonder if that would be enough to make the movie
> look OK? It's probably a little better than a double
> sided DVD.
>
> $400 for a 1TB sounds like a fair price:
> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01...first_1tb_hdd/
>
>
> Gene
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jan Panteltje" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:erktje$h07$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:35:11 -0500) it happened "Smarty"
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
>> <(E-Mail Removed)>:
>>
>>>Jan,
>>>
>>>What a refreshing and intelligent reply! I've done a bit of research on
>>>this
>>>specific topic, and it appears that "Port Multiplication" with SATA
>>>drives
>>>in a RAID is an available and more than adequate solution. The web link
>>>cited below shows simple to achieve 230 MB/sec performance and offers a
>>>solution up to around 265 MB/sec as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.macgurus.com/productpages...ationGuide.php
>>>
>>>This will certainly fill disk drives quickly!!
>>>
>>>Given that cable boxes and satellite boxes are not generally providing
>>>HDCP
>>>over HDMI, this would appear to be an alternative method to directly
>>>capture
>>>cable and satellite HDTV at full resolution.
>>>
>>>Smarty

>>
>> Good info, thank you, good to know somebody already did all this..
>> Yes, it will take a lot of space:
>> at 200 MB / s for 90 minutes 90 x 60 x 200 = 1 080 000 MB say 1.1 Tera
>> Byte.
>> That is if you wanted to record a movie.
>> It would not be so good if you recorded from a settop box, or even from a
>> DVD player,
>> as the source would be mpeg2 or similar, and that is better recorded as
>> .ps or
>> transport stream, taking much less space.
>> But for directly from a HD camera it is the right stuff.
>> Then you need more space for editing, at least double the space, 10TB
>> would be nice.
>> Now let's extrapolate a bit:
>> In the 1980 ties we were at 10MB for a harddisk.
>> Now, say 20 years later, we are at 500 MB.
>> A factor 50 in 20 years.
>> So perhaps 10 years from now we have the 12 TB harddisks....
>> In 5 years from now the 6 TB, and that would be enough already.
>> Just to know where it will go :-)
>>
>>

>
>



 
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Frank
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Posts: n/a

 
      02-22-2007, 09:15 PM
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:04:12 -0500, in 'rec.video.production',
in article <Re: Capture HD video directly from HDMI uncompressed>,
"Smarty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Gene,
>
>HDV does a pretty good job of it on a minDV tape, and 80 minute tapes for
>HDV are on the market now.


Some of use wouldn't dream of using 80-minute tapes for anything.

>Not sure if you can pump HDMI video into an HDV
>camcorder and have it record in HDV.


No, you can't. As with the analog component video jacks on HDV and
AVCHD camcorders, the HDMI jacks on these products are also output
only. They do *not* accept an input signal, sorry.

>If so, then capturing HD via the HDMI
>port using the Blackmagic and then copying it to a miniDV with a camcorder
>would be a sweet little archiving solution at relatively low cost. Nice to
>see the Blackmagic has both HDMI IN and HDMI OUT ports. :-)


--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/
 
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Jan Panteltje
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      02-22-2007, 09:23 PM
On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:14:30 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in <erktje$h07$(E-Mail Removed)>:

>Now let's extrapolate a bit:
>In the 1980 ties we were at 10MB for a harddisk.
>Now, say 20 years later, we are at 500 MB.


Oops, bit of an error, should be 500 GB :-)
So, 50000 x increase in 20 years....
Extrapolating this means the 10 TB drive must already be on sale this week,
OK lemme google for it:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/17/s...rding-density/
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=70012

hehe
 
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