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Panasonic FZ7 Noise ?

 
 
Diogel
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      03-13-2007, 11:42 AM
Hi

I am looking into buying a new digi camera. The Panasonic DMC-FZ7
looks a good bargin now (end of line ?) with all the features I need.
However, I have read a few reveiws which all seem to agree that there
is a noise problem, some say with all ISOs others say only the 400 up.
Again some people say the noise is not a noticeable problem with 4X6
prints and the lower ISOs, others say it is.

Any opinions here ?, looks a really good camera for the price.

Paul
 
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David J Taylor
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      03-13-2007, 02:36 PM
Diogel wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am looking into buying a new digi camera. The Panasonic DMC-FZ7
> looks a good bargin now (end of line ?) with all the features I need.
> However, I have read a few reveiws which all seem to agree that there
> is a noise problem, some say with all ISOs others say only the 400 up.
> Again some people say the noise is not a noticeable problem with 4X6
> prints and the lower ISOs, others say it is.
>
> Any opinions here ?, looks a really good camera for the price.
>
> Paul


I have the earlier FZ5 camera and like, /all/ small sensor cameras, it
shows some noise. However, I tend to use it at ISO 100, and noise is not
a problem with the display and print sizes I use. Be aware that noise is
somewhat "unfashionable" these days, whereas it can actually add character
and atmosphere to some shots.

The FZ7 camera and lens are excellent, and I would not let the noise issue
put you off. If low noise is absolutely essential, you will need to go to
a large-sensor camera such as a DSLR.

Cheers,
David


 
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J. Clarke
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      03-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Diogel wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am looking into buying a new digi camera. The Panasonic DMC-FZ7
> looks a good bargin now (end of line ?) with all the features I need.
> However, I have read a few reveiws which all seem to agree that there
> is a noise problem, some say with all ISOs others say only the 400 up.
> Again some people say the noise is not a noticeable problem with 4X6
> prints and the lower ISOs, others say it is.


4x6 at ISO 100? No, there is no "noise problem" with the FZ7 under that
circumstance.

Note that many self-proclaimed "experts" base their opinions on reviews,
not on personal experience with the camera. Read the reviews that
actually incorporate tests and provide comparisons with the results from
other cameras and you should get a pretty fair assessment.

It does have higher noise at all ISOs than an APS-C DSLR and at higher
ISOs it uses very aggressive noise reduction that cuts down on
sharpness, eventually going to binning which cuts down on resolution as
well. All of this means that at any ISO, and all else being equal, the
image will be noisier or less sharp than that from a DSLR. But whether
this is a _problem_ depends on how you intend to use the resulting
image. For the web and for small prints if you aren't going to crop
heavily the results can be very satisfactory at lower ISOs and can still
be usable for some purposes even at 1600.

Note that I have an FZ7 and a 30D--at large print sizes and when
pixel-peeping one can clearly see the difference between the two, but
under the same conditions and at the same magnification at low ISOs it's
difficult to see any difference in a small print unless you take a
magnifier to it and actively look for it knowing what to expect.

Even with a DSLR the FZ is convenient for those times when you need to
travel light or don't want to put the DSLR in harm's way.

> Any opinions here ?, looks a really good camera for the price.


It is. But I'd look really hard at the FZ8, which has RAW mode,
allowing you to address the noise in postprocessing rather than
in-camera, which gives you a lot more control and usually yields better
results.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


 
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Diogel
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      03-13-2007, 04:42 PM
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:45:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Diogel wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I am looking into buying a new digi camera. The Panasonic DMC-FZ7
>> looks a good bargin now (end of line ?) with all the features I need.
>> However, I have read a few reveiws which all seem to agree that there
>> is a noise problem, some say with all ISOs others say only the 400 up.
>> Again some people say the noise is not a noticeable problem with 4X6
>> prints and the lower ISOs, others say it is.

>
>4x6 at ISO 100? No, there is no "noise problem" with the FZ7 under that
>circumstance.
>
>Note that many self-proclaimed "experts" base their opinions on reviews,
>not on personal experience with the camera. Read the reviews that
>actually incorporate tests and provide comparisons with the results from
>other cameras and you should get a pretty fair assessment.
>
>It does have higher noise at all ISOs than an APS-C DSLR and at higher
>ISOs it uses very aggressive noise reduction that cuts down on
>sharpness, eventually going to binning which cuts down on resolution as
>well. All of this means that at any ISO, and all else being equal, the
>image will be noisier or less sharp than that from a DSLR. But whether
>this is a _problem_ depends on how you intend to use the resulting
>image. For the web and for small prints if you aren't going to crop
>heavily the results can be very satisfactory at lower ISOs and can still
>be usable for some purposes even at 1600.
>
>Note that I have an FZ7 and a 30D--at large print sizes and when
>pixel-peeping one can clearly see the difference between the two, but
>under the same conditions and at the same magnification at low ISOs it's
>difficult to see any difference in a small print unless you take a
>magnifier to it and actively look for it knowing what to expect.
>
>Even with a DSLR the FZ is convenient for those times when you need to
>travel light or don't want to put the DSLR in harm's way.
>
>> Any opinions here ?, looks a really good camera for the price.

>
>It is. But I'd look really hard at the FZ8, which has RAW mode,
>allowing you to address the noise in postprocessing rather than
>in-camera, which gives you a lot more control and usually yields better
>results.
>
>--

Thanks Robert, David and John for your reassurance on the FZ7 noise
issue. I guess the reviewers might always be comparing against DSLR.

I do appreciate that a camera with a larger sensor will exhibit lower
noise.

I want a camera which I can stick in my pocket (well almost), but want
more features than a compact, hence the interest in the FZ7, and the
price ;-)

Thanks

Paul
 
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Guest
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      03-13-2007, 07:55 PM

"David J Taylor" <david-(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote in message news:VFyJh.4296$(E-Mail Removed) k...
> Diogel wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I am looking into buying a new digi camera. The Panasonic DMC-FZ7
>> looks a good bargin now (end of line ?) with all the features I need.
>> However, I have read a few reveiws which all seem to agree that there
>> is a noise problem, some say with all ISOs others say only the 400 up.
>> Again some people say the noise is not a noticeable problem with 4X6
>> prints and the lower ISOs, others say it is.
>>
>> Any opinions here ?, looks a really good camera for the price.
>>
>> Paul

>
> I have the earlier FZ5 camera and like, /all/ small sensor cameras, it
> shows some noise. However, I tend to use it at ISO 100, and noise is not
> a problem with the display and print sizes I use. Be aware that noise is
> somewhat "unfashionable" these days, whereas it can actually add character
> and atmosphere to some shots.
>
> The FZ7 camera and lens are excellent, and I would not let the noise issue
> put you off. If low noise is absolutely essential, you will need to go to
> a large-sensor camera such as a DSLR.


I've noticed that "large sensor" and "DSLR" invariably go together when
noise is being discussed. Are there no large sensor camera with fixed
lenses? I would a camera similar to the Panasonics, but with a large(r)
sensor.

Norm Strong


 
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David Dyer-Bennet
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      03-13-2007, 08:31 PM
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

> I've noticed that "large sensor" and "DSLR" invariably go together when
> noise is being discussed. Are there no large sensor camera with fixed
> lenses? I would a camera similar to the Panasonics, but with a large(r)
> sensor.


There's the new Sigma DP-1 (fixed wideangle f/4 lens); not sure it's
shipping yet. And Sony had one, the DSC-R1. And then there are a
couple of models that, quibblingly, aren't DSLRs because their digital
interchangeable-lens rangefinders instead, like the Leica M8 (which has
the sort of price you'd expect of something called the M8).

So, what it comes down to, is that Sony tried it once (with a camera
that sold for $1000), and Sigma is trying it now with a *weird* feature
mix that I don't understand, and nobody else has done anything like it.
 
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J. Clarke
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      03-13-2007, 08:38 PM
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> "David J Taylor"
> <david-(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> message news:VFyJh.4296$(E-Mail Removed) k...
>> Diogel wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I am looking into buying a new digi camera. The Panasonic DMC-FZ7
>>> looks a good bargin now (end of line ?) with all the features I
>>> need. However, I have read a few reveiws which all seem to agree
>>> that there is a noise problem, some say with all ISOs others say
>>> only the 400 up. Again some people say the noise is not a
>>> noticeable problem with 4X6 prints and the lower ISOs, others say
>>> it is.
>>>
>>> Any opinions here ?, looks a really good camera for the price.
>>>
>>> Paul

>>
>> I have the earlier FZ5 camera and like, /all/ small sensor cameras,
>> it shows some noise. However, I tend to use it at ISO 100, and
>> noise is not a problem with the display and print sizes I use. Be
>> aware that noise is somewhat "unfashionable" these days, whereas it
>> can actually add character and atmosphere to some shots.
>>
>> The FZ7 camera and lens are excellent, and I would not let the noise
>> issue put you off. If low noise is absolutely essential, you will
>> need to go to a large-sensor camera such as a DSLR.

>
> I've noticed that "large sensor" and "DSLR" invariably go together
> when noise is being discussed. Are there no large sensor camera with
> fixed lenses? I would a camera similar to the Panasonics, but with a
> large(r) sensor.


There are two, the Sony DSC-R1 and the Sigma DP-1. The Sony is no
longer being produced and the Sigma with a rather wide fixed focal
length lens looks like a nonstarter.

There's no way to make a camera with an APS-C sensor that has the same
capabilities as an FZ-7 and is the size of an FZ-7--it would necessarily
be about the size and weight of a DSLR with a 270mm f/3.3 lens attached
and would at best cost only slightly less to make.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


 
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John Sheehy
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      03-14-2007, 04:09 AM
"Adam Smith" <as99@claranet**.com> wrote in
news:45f70f74$0$2655$(E-Mail Removed) g.com:

> If you intend printing at A4 size or below then prints even at the
> highest ISO are quite acceptable.
> Panasonic sensors are relatively noisy at higher ISOs


I've found that my FZ50 is actually a lot noisier at ISO 1600 than it needs
to be; apparently, the camera uses a very pathetic amplifier that has no
value, as simply pushing ISO 100 gives less noise. That's only useful if
you push RAW; if you push JPEGs, you're going to be pushing noise reduction
artifacts.

--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <(E-Mail Removed)>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

 
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Jack Torrence
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      03-14-2007, 07:53 AM
"Diogel" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Hi
>
> I am looking into buying a new digi camera. The Panasonic DMC-FZ7
> looks a good bargin now (end of line ?) with all the features I need.
> However, I have read a few reveiws which all seem to agree that there
> is a noise problem, some say with all ISOs others say only the 400 up.
> Again some people say the noise is not a noticeable problem with 4X6
> prints and the lower ISOs, others say it is.
>
> Any opinions here ?, looks a really good camera for the price.


For the price you can't beat it.

If you're concerned about the noise then why not go to the review on
www.dpreview.com and download the sample images to print. I doubt you'll
notice anything to worry about at 6x4.


 
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Guest
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      03-14-2007, 03:57 PM

<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
> On Mar 13, 12:42 pm, Diogel <Dio...@DontExist.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:45:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>>
>>
>>
>> <jclarke.use...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >Diogel wrote:
>> >> Hi

>>
>> >> I am looking into buying a new digi camera. The Panasonic DMC-FZ7
>> >> looks a good bargin now (end of line ?) with all the features I need.
>> >> However, I have read a few reveiws which all seem to agree that there
>> >> is a noise problem, some say with all ISOs others say only the 400 up.
>> >> Again some people say the noise is not a noticeable problem with 4X6
>> >> prints and the lower ISOs, others say it is.

>>
>> >4x6 at ISO 100? No, there is no "noise problem" with the FZ7 under that
>> >circumstance.

>>
>> >Note that many self-proclaimed "experts" base their opinions on reviews,
>> >not on personal experience with the camera. Read the reviews that
>> >actually incorporate tests and provide comparisons with the results from
>> >other cameras and you should get a pretty fair assessment.

>>
>> >It does have higher noise at all ISOs than an APS-C DSLR and at higher
>> >ISOs it uses very aggressive noise reduction that cuts down on
>> >sharpness, eventually going to binning which cuts down on resolution as
>> >well. All of this means that at any ISO, and all else being equal, the
>> >image will be noisier or less sharp than that from a DSLR. But whether
>> >this is a _problem_ depends on how you intend to use the resulting
>> >image. For the web and for small prints if you aren't going to crop
>> >heavily the results can be very satisfactory at lower ISOs and can still
>> >be usable for some purposes even at 1600.

>>
>> >Note that I have an FZ7 and a 30D--at large print sizes and when
>> >pixel-peeping one can clearly see the difference between the two, but
>> >under the same conditions and at the same magnification at low ISOs it's
>> >difficult to see any difference in a small print unless you take a
>> >magnifier to it and actively look for it knowing what to expect.

>>
>> >Even with a DSLR the FZ is convenient for those times when you need to
>> >travel light or don't want to put the DSLR in harm's way.

>>
>> >> Any opinions here ?, looks a really good camera for the price.

>>
>> >It is. But I'd look really hard at the FZ8, which has RAW mode,
>> >allowing you to address the noise in postprocessing rather than
>> >in-camera, which gives you a lot more control and usually yields better
>> >results.

>>
>> >--

>>
>> Thanks Robert, David and John for your reassurance on the FZ7 noise
>> issue. I guess the reviewers might always be comparing against DSLR.
>>
>> I do appreciate that a camera with a larger sensor will exhibit lower
>> noise.
>>
>> I want a camera which I can stick in my pocket (well almost), but want
>> more features than a compact, hence the interest in the FZ7, and the
>> price ;-)

>
> I wouldn't worry about the noise if you like the camera otherwise. One
> reason why Panasonic cameras tend to have higher levels of noise is
> that they don't do a lot of noise reduction. I think this is a GOOD
> thing, because excessive noise reduction removes a lot of detail from
> the pictures. It's better to have noisy pictures that maintain detail.
> You can always use Noise Ninja or similar software to remove the noise
> yourself if you think it's necessary. This gives you more control, and
> Noise Ninja on your desktop will do a better job than in-camera
> processing ever could.


I can't stand noise (graininess in film cameras) and poor resolution. In
order to get decent results on film, I was willing to use a medium format
camera and ASA100 film developed in a phenidone developer. I frequently
used only the center half of the negative and blew it up to 11 x 14. This
will give you an idea of how important noise will be to me. Speed is a
secondary issue; most of my photography is posed portraiture.

My issue with DSLR is dust on the sensor. Unlike film, where you get a
brand new "sensor" for each exposure, there would seem to be an accumulation
of dirt on a sensor exposed to the atmosphere.

Norm


 
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