Some interesting WWII images from The Atlantic

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Savageduck, Oct 18, 2011.

  1. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

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  2. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    Savageduck, Oct 18, 2011
    #2
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  3. Savageduck

    RichA Guest

    RichA, Oct 18, 2011
    #3
  4. Savageduck

    notbob Guest

    On 2011-10-18, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-nazi-germany/100166/


    Thanks for that, SD. That goes now goes in my bookmarks with another
    website a friend recently made me aware of:

    http://tinyurl.com/2aye32m

    I've seen dozens of WWII film documentaries, but was never quite so
    taken aback as I was by still photographs. The immediacy of the
    terror and horror of war can truly be conveyed by photos where one can
    linger and look closely at and ponder the unfortunates caught up in
    something so horrifying and calamitous.

    The whole Plog thing from the Denver Post has some great galleries.
    One can easily spend hours rummaging through them. Check it out.

    nb
     
    notbob, Oct 18, 2011
    #4
  5. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    On 2011-10-18 07:47:38 -0700, notbob said:

    > On 2011-10-18, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >
    >> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-nazi-germany/100166/
    >>

    >
    > Thanks for that, SD. That goes now goes in my bookmarks with another
    > website a friend recently made me aware of:
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/2aye32m
    >
    > I've seen dozens of WWII film documentaries, but was never quite so
    > taken aback as I was by still photographs. The immediacy of the
    > terror and horror of war can truly be conveyed by photos where one can
    > linger and look closely at and ponder the unfortunates caught up in
    > something so horrifying and calamitous.
    >
    > The whole Plog thing from the Denver Post has some great galleries.
    > One can easily spend hours rummaging through them. Check it out.
    >
    > nb


    Nice presentation there.
    It seems AP archives is uncovering masses of these images which have
    not been part of the usually published WWII images. For the last 60 or
    so years many of the usual photographs have been recycled time and
    again. These new found images just add to the photographic history of
    the war, and are a welcome addition.

    --
    Regards,

    Savageduck
     
    Savageduck, Oct 18, 2011
    #5
  6. Savageduck

    notbob Guest

    On 2011-10-18, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    > not been part of the usually published WWII images. For the last 60 or
    > so years many of the usual photographs have been recycled time and
    > again.


    Specially on cable where films have been shown ad nauseum on networks
    like the Arts and Hitler channel. These photographs reveal new
    insights to the unspeakable horror of what our young men sacrificed
    for us and gives us a new appreciation of what was preserved by their
    gallant efforts.

    I was a bit miffed by the Atlantic gallery that borked the dead body
    pics from what I assume was the Malmedy Massacre (#8) and other grim
    shots. These photo records are exactly what needs to be perserved,
    revealed, and remembered. It's not only pointless to explain a photo
    that is not shown, but a disservice to those who deserve to be
    remembered.

    nb
     
    notbob, Oct 18, 2011
    #6
  7. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    On 2011-10-18 10:06:14 -0700, notbob said:

    > On 2011-10-18, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >> not been part of the usually published WWII images. For the last 60 or
    >> so years many of the usual photographs have been recycled time and
    >> again.

    >
    > Specially on cable where films have been shown ad nauseum on networks
    > like the Arts and Hitler channel. These photographs reveal new
    > insights to the unspeakable horror of what our young men sacrificed
    > for us and gives us a new appreciation of what was preserved by their
    > gallant efforts.


    I find one of the most annoying things with some of the network
    footage, particularly with aviation guncamera footage, is that very
    little of that shown relates in any way to the story being told. The
    mix and match editing for the Battles of Coral Sea, Midway, and
    Philippine Sea for example.

    >
    > I was a bit miffed by the Atlantic gallery that borked the dead body
    > pics from what I assume was the Malmedy Massacre (#8) and other grim
    > shots.


    They were just a click away.

    > These photo records are exactly what needs to be perserved,
    > revealed, and remembered. It's not only pointless to explain a photo
    > that is not shown, but a disservice to those who deserve to be
    > remembered.
    >
    > nb


    True, but to be fair they were there, certainly not out in the open,
    but under wraps, so to speak. Some folks are sensitive about images of
    the dead. I have had my fair share of exposure to gruesome images, and
    many of those I would not dream of sharing unsolicited.
    It is also worth remembering that during the war, images of our war
    dead were considered bad for moral on the homefront, and were subject
    to censorship.

    --
    Regards,

    Savageduck
     
    Savageduck, Oct 18, 2011
    #7
  8. Savageduck

    notbob Guest

    On 2011-10-18, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    > They were just a click away.


    > True, but to be fair they were there, certainly not out in the open,
    > but under wraps, so to speak.


    DOH!!

    I use the NoScript plug-in and the "click here" message was not
    visible, as I had only the minimum scripts enabled. A little fiddling
    revealed the stealth pics. Thanks.

    nb
     
    notbob, Oct 18, 2011
    #8
  9. Savageduck

    PeterN Guest

    PeterN, Oct 18, 2011
    #9
  10. Pete Stavrakoglou, Oct 19, 2011
    #10
  11. Savageduck

    philo Guest

    "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    news:2011101722373833404-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    > On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >
    >> <
    >> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-nazi-germany/100166/

    >
    >
    > Here is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >
    > < http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html >
    >
    >


    Amazing, historic photos.

    I was stationed in Germany 25 years after the war and there was still plenty
    of damage in sight.
    Blown-up bunkers were common. as were remnants of destroyed buildings...and
    WW-II barbed wire.

    One day, while parked in down-town Nuremberg I realized that the brick-paved
    parking lot was the very square where Hitler gave many of his speeches.
    A very eerie feeling!
     
    philo, Oct 20, 2011
    #11
  12. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    On 2011-10-19 16:25:50 -0700, "philo" <> said:

    >
    > "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    > news:2011101722373833404-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    >> On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >>
    >>> <
    >>> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-nazi-germany/100166/



    Here
    >>>

    >> is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >>
    >> < http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html >
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Amazing, historic photos.
    >
    > I was stationed in Germany 25 years after the war and there was still plenty
    > of damage in sight.
    > Blown-up bunkers were common. as were remnants of destroyed buildings...and
    > WW-II barbed wire.
    >
    > One day, while parked in down-town Nuremberg I realized that the brick-paved
    > parking lot was the very square where Hitler gave many of his speeches.
    > A very eerie feeling!


    I can remember London in 1955 when our whole family congregated to
    celebrate my Great-Grandmother's (on my mother's side)100th birthday.
    The place was bleak, filthy and seemed to be in a state of decay with
    war damage reconstruction going on everywhere. The notorious London fog
    and pollution from coal heated homes was pervasive. I remember black &
    dirty yellow snow in Hyde Park.
    That was 10 years after the end of the war, and there was a supposed
    victor struggling to recover.
    That was an impression which remains etched in my memory. When visiting
    the UK and London, I always anticipate that vision of a wasteland, and
    am always pleasantly surprised to see that great city has healed and
    grown past those dark days.


    --
    Regards,

    Savageduck
     
    Savageduck, Oct 20, 2011
    #12
  13. Savageduck

    Eric Stevens Guest

    On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:35:31 -0700, Savageduck
    <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >On 2011-10-19 16:25:50 -0700, "philo" <> said:
    >
    >>
    >> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    >> news:2011101722373833404-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    >>> On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >>>
    >>>> <
    >>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-nazi-germany/100166/

    >
    >
    >Here
    >>>>
    >>> is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >>>
    >>> < http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html >
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Amazing, historic photos.
    >>
    >> I was stationed in Germany 25 years after the war and there was still plenty
    >> of damage in sight.
    >> Blown-up bunkers were common. as were remnants of destroyed buildings...and
    >> WW-II barbed wire.
    >>
    >> One day, while parked in down-town Nuremberg I realized that the brick-paved
    >> parking lot was the very square where Hitler gave many of his speeches.
    >> A very eerie feeling!

    >
    >I can remember London in 1955 when our whole family congregated to
    >celebrate my Great-Grandmother's (on my mother's side)100th birthday.
    >The place was bleak, filthy and seemed to be in a state of decay with
    >war damage reconstruction going on everywhere. The notorious London fog
    >and pollution from coal heated homes was pervasive. I remember black &
    >dirty yellow snow in Hyde Park.
    >That was 10 years after the end of the war, and there was a supposed
    >victor struggling to recover.
    >That was an impression which remains etched in my memory. When visiting
    >the UK and London, I always anticipate that vision of a wasteland, and
    >am always pleasantly surprised to see that great city has healed and
    >grown past those dark days.


    I recently travelled through St Petersburg. The city was a burned out
    ruin after the war but you could not tell that now. Even so, they are
    still restoring buildings.

    Regards,

    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Oct 20, 2011
    #13
  14. Savageduck

    philo Guest

    On 10/19/2011 08:35 PM, Savageduck wrote:
    > On 2011-10-19 16:25:50 -0700, "philo" <> said:
    >
    >>
    >>>



    <snip>
    eerie feeling!
    >
    > I can remember London in 1955 when our whole family congregated to
    > celebrate my Great-Grandmother's (on my mother's side)100th birthday.
    > The place was bleak, filthy and seemed to be in a state of decay with
    > war damage reconstruction going on everywhere. The notorious London fog
    > and pollution from coal heated homes was pervasive. I remember black &
    > dirty yellow snow in Hyde Park.
    > That was 10 years after the end of the war, and there was a supposed
    > victor struggling to recover.
    > That was an impression which remains etched in my memory. When visiting
    > the UK and London, I always anticipate that vision of a wasteland, and
    > am always pleasantly surprised to see that great city has healed and
    > grown past those dark days.
    >
    >


    I did get to London in 1971 and there was still the smell of coal.

    Kind of disappointed (in a way) that when I took my daughter there in
    1988...there was no more coal smell. I am sure the Londoners were not
    disappointed however. OTOH: The probably never noticed it in the first place
     
    philo, Oct 20, 2011
    #14
  15. Savageduck

    philo Guest

    On 10/19/2011 09:59 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
    > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:35:31 -0700, Savageduck
    > <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >
    >> On 2011-10-19 16:25:50 -0700, "philo"<> said:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> "Savageduck"<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    >>> news:2011101722373833404-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    >>>> On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >>>>
    >>>>> <
    >>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-nazi-germany/100166/

    >>
    >>
    >> Here
    >>>>>
    >>>> is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >>>>
    >>>> < http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Amazing, historic photos.
    >>>

    <snip>

    > I recently travelled through St Petersburg. The city was a burned out
    > ruin after the war but you could not tell that now. Even so, they are
    > still restoring buildings.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Eric Stevens



    Wow... St. Petersburg would be one place I'd like to go.
    I may never get there but am so happy that thanks to Google Earth
    I was at least somewhat able to take a tour.

    Amazing!
     
    philo, Oct 20, 2011
    #15
  16. Savageduck

    Irwell Guest

    On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:59:48 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote:

    > On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:35:31 -0700, Savageduck
    > <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On 2011-10-19 16:25:50 -0700, "philo" <> said:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    >>> news:2011101722373833404-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    >>>> On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >>>>
    >>>>> <
    >>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-nazi-germany/100166/

    >>
    >>
    >>Here
    >>>>>
    >>>> is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >>>>
    >>>> < http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html >
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Amazing, historic photos.
    >>>
    >>> I was stationed in Germany 25 years after the war and there was still plenty
    >>> of damage in sight.
    >>> Blown-up bunkers were common. as were remnants of destroyed buildings...and
    >>> WW-II barbed wire.
    >>>
    >>> One day, while parked in down-town Nuremberg I realized that the brick-paved
    >>> parking lot was the very square where Hitler gave many of his speeches.
    >>> A very eerie feeling!

    >>
    >>I can remember London in 1955 when our whole family congregated to
    >>celebrate my Great-Grandmother's (on my mother's side)100th birthday.
    >>The place was bleak, filthy and seemed to be in a state of decay with
    >>war damage reconstruction going on everywhere. The notorious London fog
    >>and pollution from coal heated homes was pervasive. I remember black &
    >>dirty yellow snow in Hyde Park.
    >>That was 10 years after the end of the war, and there was a supposed
    >>victor struggling to recover.
    >>That was an impression which remains etched in my memory. When visiting
    >>the UK and London, I always anticipate that vision of a wasteland, and
    >>am always pleasantly surprised to see that great city has healed and
    >>grown past those dark days.

    >
    > I recently travelled through St Petersburg. The city was a burned out
    > ruin after the war but you could not tell that now. Even so, they are
    > still restoring buildings.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Eric Stevens


    I went when it was still Leningrad, a murky mess of a city then,
    reminded me of Manchester after the 1940 blitz.
     
    Irwell, Oct 21, 2011
    #16
  17. Savageduck

    Eric Stevens Guest

    On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:03:18 -0700, Irwell <> wrote:

    >On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:59:48 +1300, Eric Stevens wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 18:35:31 -0700, Savageduck
    >> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On 2011-10-19 16:25:50 -0700, "philo" <> said:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    >>>> news:2011101722373833404-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    >>>>> On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> <
    >>>>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-nazi-germany/100166/
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Here
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> < http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html >
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Amazing, historic photos.
    >>>>
    >>>> I was stationed in Germany 25 years after the war and there was still plenty
    >>>> of damage in sight.
    >>>> Blown-up bunkers were common. as were remnants of destroyed buildings...and
    >>>> WW-II barbed wire.
    >>>>
    >>>> One day, while parked in down-town Nuremberg I realized that the brick-paved
    >>>> parking lot was the very square where Hitler gave many of his speeches.
    >>>> A very eerie feeling!
    >>>
    >>>I can remember London in 1955 when our whole family congregated to
    >>>celebrate my Great-Grandmother's (on my mother's side)100th birthday.
    >>>The place was bleak, filthy and seemed to be in a state of decay with
    >>>war damage reconstruction going on everywhere. The notorious London fog
    >>>and pollution from coal heated homes was pervasive. I remember black &
    >>>dirty yellow snow in Hyde Park.
    >>>That was 10 years after the end of the war, and there was a supposed
    >>>victor struggling to recover.
    >>>That was an impression which remains etched in my memory. When visiting
    >>>the UK and London, I always anticipate that vision of a wasteland, and
    >>>am always pleasantly surprised to see that great city has healed and
    >>>grown past those dark days.

    >>
    >> I recently travelled through St Petersburg. The city was a burned out
    >> ruin after the war but you could not tell that now. Even so, they are
    >> still restoring buildings.
    >>
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Eric Stevens

    >
    >I went when it was still Leningrad, a murky mess of a city then,
    >reminded me of Manchester after the 1940 blitz.


    Here is a photograph of the remains of the palace at Pushkin (on the
    outskirts of Leningrad, about as close as the Germans got) immediately
    after the war
    http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2/Images/images09-Leningrad/Leningrad-Ruins.jpg

    .... and as my wife saw it a few weeks ago
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31088803/JMG_0747.jpg

    The interior is virtually fully restored also.
    They told us that "If it looks like gold, it is gold".

    Regards,

    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Oct 21, 2011
    #17
  18. Savageduck

    Higgs Boson Guest

    On Oct 17, 10:37 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    wrote:
    > On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >
    > > <
    > >http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-n...

    >
    > Here is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >
    > <http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html>
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    >
    > Savageduck


    First one I clicked on was Operation Barbarossa. The Atlantic
    subtitle was: ""The Soviets were unprepared for the sudden blitzkreig
    (misspelled; should be blitzkrieg) attacks across a border that
    spanned nearly 2,900 km (1,800 mi), and suffered horrible losses."

    Misleading, big time! The Soviet ARMY and generals were prepared!
    They warned Stalin over & over about the Germans massing at the
    border. Stalin stubbornly refused to believe his German allies would
    turn on him. Up to the last minute, the Soviet generals were begging
    Stalin to take action, but he was the dictator
    so nothing was done to stop the German attack. When they entered
    Soviet territory, Stalin became near-catatonic with fear and anguish;
    for TWO WEEKS he refused to emerge from his funk and order counter-
    action. Had this bloody dictator listened to the professional
    military men who desperately wanted to protect their country,
    Operation Barbarossa might have fizzled. The irony is that not too
    much later Stalin ordered the execution of these very same brave
    officers.
     
    Higgs Boson, Oct 22, 2011
    #18
  19. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    On 2011-10-22 13:44:38 -0700, Higgs Boson <> said:

    > On Oct 17, 10:37 pm, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    > wrote:
    >> On 2011-10-17 22:29:55 -0700, Savageduck said:
    >>
    >>> <
    >>> http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-fall-of-n...

    >>
    >> Here is the main page for the series, there are two more to be published.
    >>
    >> <http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/ww2.html>
    >>
    >> --
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Savageduck

    >
    > First one I clicked on was Operation Barbarossa. The Atlantic
    > subtitle was: ""The Soviets were unprepared for the sudden blitzkreig
    > (misspelled; should be blitzkrieg) attacks across a border that
    > spanned nearly 2,900 km (1,800 mi), and suffered horrible losses."
    >
    > Misleading, big time! The Soviet ARMY and generals were prepared!
    > They warned Stalin over & over about the Germans massing at the
    > border. Stalin stubbornly refused to believe his German allies would
    > turn on him. Up to the last minute, the Soviet generals were begging
    > Stalin to take action, but he was the dictator
    > so nothing was done to stop the German attack. When they entered
    > Soviet territory, Stalin became near-catatonic with fear and anguish;
    > for TWO WEEKS he refused to emerge from his funk and order counter-
    > action. Had this bloody dictator listened to the professional
    > military men who desperately wanted to protect their country,
    > Operation Barbarossa might have fizzled. The irony is that not too
    > much later Stalin ordered the execution of these very same brave
    > officers.


    Oh well! What does an editor at the Atlantic know about German spelling
    conventions?

    There was also more to Stalin and the Soviet reaction to Barbarossa
    than not listening to his military leaders. There was also more to the
    Soviet collapse than Stalin's inaction and the purges.
    The Soviets were at the wrong end of current military technology, in
    field equipment and aviation (the purges could be blamed there).
    The Soviet aviation industries only started producing aircraft which
    could compete with German design after the surviving purged designers
    were released from detention and prison and set to the task.
    ....and that was after the launch of Barbarossa.

    The British had been leaking information to the Soviets for weeks
    before the start of Barbarossa, all of which told of the German build
    up and impending operations to the East. This information had been
    filtered through different agents in Switzerland & Eastern Europe so as
    not to reveal the source at Bletchley Park and the breach of the
    "Enigma" codes. Stalin in his paranoia refused to accept any of this
    intelligence from the West.

    As for the purges of the Soviet military leadership, they took place
    between 1936 and 1940, not after Barbarossa. There were different
    Stalinist abuses of the military rank and file, cannon fodder,
    implemented by the commissars, especially by a certain Nikita
    Khrushchev at Stalingrad.
    At the end of the war there was also major Soviet action taken against
    returning Russian POWs, and entire divisions of Soviet troops who had
    been "contaminated" by exposure to the Western allies. Many of those
    never saw their families and homes after 1945 and were added to the
    Soviet war casualty figures.


    --
    Regards,

    Savageduck
     
    Savageduck, Oct 22, 2011
    #19
  20. Savageduck

    Bruce Guest

    Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
    >
    >The British had been leaking information to the Soviets for weeks
    >before the start of Barbarossa, all of which told of the German build
    >up and impending operations to the East. This information had been
    >filtered through different agents in Switzerland & Eastern Europe so as
    >not to reveal the source at Bletchley Park and the breach of the
    >"Enigma" codes. Stalin in his paranoia refused to accept any of this
    >intelligence from the West.



    Operation Barbarossa started in December 1940. But the following
    reference suggests that "Only in 1941 did Enigma decrypts pay
    dividends." If that was true, how could Enigma decrypts at Bletchley
    Park have contributed to prior warnings of Barbarossa?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/enigma_01.shtml

    (reference is about half way down that page)
     
    Bruce, Oct 22, 2011
    #20
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