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Vegas 9 smart rendering / full 24 Mb/sec output

 
 
Smarty
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      05-14-2009, 03:05 PM
Just a brief post to report that the new Vegas 9 now provides "no
recompression" smart rendering and also creates full 24 Mbit/sec disks when
smart rendering is applied.

The rendering times have been drastically reduced by this enhancement, and
the final published disks have absolutely identical quality to the original
pristine 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD content.

There are numerous caveats associated with these features, in particular the
method which Sony uses to decide when smart rendering will and will not be
applied. Also, the full 24 Mbit/sec bit rate output is only available under
some circumstances, so it cannot be offered as a complete 24 Mbit/sec
solution yet. Clearly a lot of progress has been made in these directions
since version 8.

I can also only confirm this performance for the Canon HFS10, but I presume
other 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD content will perform similarly.

Smarty




 
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David Ruether
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      05-14-2009, 08:12 PM

"Smarty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:CqWOl.1231$(E-Mail Removed)...

> Just a brief post to report that the new Vegas 9 now provides "no recompression" smart rendering and also creates full 24 Mbit/sec
> disks when smart rendering is applied.
>
> The rendering times have been drastically reduced by this enhancement, and the final published disks have absolutely identical
> quality to the original pristine 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD content.
>
> There are numerous caveats associated with these features, in particular the method which Sony uses to decide when smart rendering
> will and will not be applied. Also, the full 24 Mbit/sec bit rate output is only available under some circumstances, so it cannot
> be offered as a complete 24 Mbit/sec solution yet. Clearly a lot of progress has been made in these directions since version 8.
>
> I can also only confirm this performance for the Canon HFS10, but I presume other 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD content will perform
> similarly.
>
> Smarty


The above is technically true, but if one tries to export an AVCHD
computer file for archiving, etc., the data rate is still limited to 16 Mbps,
the same as it is with Pro 8, and that is presumably the same as it also
is for any changed footage on the timeline that is exported to disk. This
is certainly an improvement over Pro 8c's handling of AVCHD (at least
when exporting to disk, and in terms of using "Smart Rendering"), but
given that "good" AVCHD camcorders now use the 24 Mbps data
rate, Pro 9 is, as you point out, not yet a complete 24 Mbps solution
for editing AVCHD. Perhaps with an update, it will become so, but it
is unfortunate that Pro 9 does not do what it should have done "out of
the gate"...
--DR


 
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David Ruether
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      05-15-2009, 05:20 PM

"David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:guhtvi$ei7$(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Smarty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:CqWOl.1231$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>> Just a brief post to report that the new Vegas 9 now provides "no recompression" smart rendering and also creates full 24
>> Mbit/sec disks when smart rendering is applied.
>>
>> The rendering times have been drastically reduced by this enhancement, and the final published disks have absolutely identical
>> quality to the original pristine 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD content.
>>
>> There are numerous caveats associated with these features, in particular the method which Sony uses to decide when smart
>> rendering will and will not be applied. Also, the full 24 Mbit/sec bit rate output is only available under some circumstances, so
>> it cannot be offered as a complete 24 Mbit/sec solution yet. Clearly a lot of progress has been made in these directions since
>> version 8.
>>
>> I can also only confirm this performance for the Canon HFS10, but I presume other 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD content will perform
>> similarly.
>>
>> Smarty


> The above is technically true, but if one tries to export an AVCHD
> computer file for archiving, etc., the data rate is still limited to 16 Mbps,
> the same as it is with Pro 8, and that is presumably the same as it also
> is for any changed footage on the timeline that is exported to disk. This
> is certainly an improvement over Pro 8c's handling of AVCHD (at least
> when exporting to disk, and in terms of using "Smart Rendering"), but
> given that "good" AVCHD camcorders now use the 24 Mbps data
> rate, Pro 9 is, as you point out, not yet a complete 24 Mbps solution
> for editing AVCHD. Perhaps with an update, it will become so, but it
> is unfortunate that Pro 9 does not do what it should have done "out of
> the gate"...
> --DR


More...
I just tried placing two 24 Mbps clips (from a Panasonic 150) on the Vegas
Pro 9 timeline. I first tried exporting part of one of the files, without change,
to a file on the desktop. It went very quickly, indicating that it was being
copied and not recompressed. I then chopped the clips into several pieces,
removing some small pieces, and overlapping the ones that remained (adding
a different transition type to one of the overlaps). I also cut one clip to move
a section to a track above where I extended its ends, applied a color change,
then brought it back down to join (with overlaps) its original clip. Remaining
were several relatively unchanged parts. I then added audio and video
fade-in/outs at the ends and included an "empty" leader and tail. Exporting
this to a file required about 6:15 for 40 seconds of material with a dual core
CPU, and that plus the "stepped" preview image progress indicated that
none of the timeline material was merely copied once part of the timeline
material had been modified. I compared the exported video frame-to-frame
with the original, and while it was very close, it wasn't quite as good. Also,
at no time with any 1/2 sized preview window setting was playback of 24
Mbps AVCHD material smooth on this computer. Hooray for HDV! It
works, and AVCHD doesn't appear to yet work with Vegas, and it is still
a "pain" to use unless the hardware resources are extraordinary. I will be
staying with HDV and Vegas Pro 8 for a while longer, it appears...
--DR


 
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Smarty
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      05-15-2009, 09:37 PM
"David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:guhtvi$ei7$(E-Mail Removed)...
>


>
> The above is technically true, but if one tries to export an AVCHD
> computer file for archiving, etc., the data rate is still limited to 16
> Mbps,
> the same as it is with Pro 8> --DR
>



Again, not true,

 
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Smarty
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      05-15-2009, 09:43 PM
"David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:guk88v$1eb$(E-Mail Removed)...

> More...
> I just tried placing two 24 Mbps clips (from a Panasonic 150) on the Vegas
> Pro 9 timeline. I first tried exporting part of one of the files, without
> change,
> to a file on the desktop. It went very quickly, indicating that it was
> being
> copied and not recompressed.



Yes indeed, and these files can be exported, archived, and used directly
from Vegas 9 as 24 Mbit/sec files.

I thank you for actually trying Vegas 9 with 24 Mbit/sec content. You are
beginning to now (finally) understand what it actually can and cannot due,
unlike your prior two posts.



> at no time with any 1/2 sized preview window setting was playback of 24
> Mbps AVCHD material smooth on this computer. Hooray for HDV! It
> works, and AVCHD doesn't appear to yet work with Vegas
> --DR
>
>


Get yourself a quadcore for about $650 and stop moaning and making false
statements. AVCHD works absolutely fine with Vegas, both version 8 and now
version 9. What "doesn't appear to work with Vegas" is your dual core.

Your "facts" and opinions are a train wreck when it comes to AVCHD.

Smarty

 
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David Ruether
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      05-15-2009, 09:54 PM

"Smarty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:hglPl.1535$(E-Mail Removed)...
> "David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:guhtvi$ei7$(E-Mail Removed)...


>> The above is technically true, but if one tries to export an AVCHD
>> computer file for archiving, etc., the data rate is still limited to 16 Mbps, the same as it is with Pro 8
>> --DR


> Again, not true,


It is true. If you change ANYTHING in the material on the Vegas 9
timeline, it will ALL rerender as Main Profile (16 Mbps), not High
Profile (24 Mbps) when exporting a file. If you don't change anything
in the material on the timeline, you aren't editing, which seems kinda
pointless...8^)
[And, hey, I thought you said you had "PLONKED!" me...! 8^]
--DR


 
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David Ruether
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      05-15-2009, 10:28 PM

"Smarty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:ZllPl.1536$(E-Mail Removed)...
> "David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:guk88v$1eb$(E-Mail Removed)...


>> More...
>> I just tried placing two 24 Mbps clips (from a Panasonic 150) on the Vegas
>> Pro 9 timeline. I first tried exporting part of one of the files, without change,
>> to a file on the desktop. It went very quickly, indicating that it was being copied and not recompressed.


> Yes indeed, and these files can be exported, archived, and used directly from Vegas 9 as 24 Mbit/sec files.


Only if NOTHING is changed in the timeline material, otherwises Vegas
9 recompresses EVERYTHING at 16 Mbps instead of 24 Mbps, not
very useful when editing and exporting 24 Mbps material to files...

> I thank you for actually trying Vegas 9 with 24 Mbit/sec content. You are beginning to now (finally) understand what it actually
> can and cannot due, unlike your prior two posts.


??? They either agreed with what you wrote, or with an expanded version
I placed on the Vegas Forums - which was followed up with responses
from several others who know what they are doing and who agreed with my
observations. Nothing I wrote earlier about Vegas 9 contradicts that - so,
stop being silly...

>> at no time with any 1/2 sized preview window setting was playback of 24
>> Mbps AVCHD material smooth on this computer. Hooray for HDV! It
>> works, and AVCHD doesn't appear to yet work with Vegas
>> --DR


> Get yourself a quadcore for about $650 and stop moaning and making false statements. AVCHD works absolutely fine with Vegas, both
> version 8 and now version 9. What "doesn't appear to work with Vegas" is your dual core.


I tried it on a convenient dual-core machine, but AVCHD still runs poorly
on my quad-core compared with HDV. Why bother trying to run something
that doesn't work well when a better alternative is available (especially if
one cannot export *edited* files at the highest source camera quality at all
with the program)?

> Your "facts" and opinions are a train wreck when it comes to AVCHD.
>
> Smarty


Yuh, right. See above. Methinks you may not always "know it all", but
what is true is that you are always rude in your posts following mine...;-)
I suggest that you really do "PLONK!" me this time, instead of just lying
about doing it.
--DR


 
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David Ruether
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      05-16-2009, 04:36 PM

"David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:guko9t$ruj$(E-Mail Removed)...
> "Smarty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:hglPl.1535$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> "David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:guhtvi$ei7$(E-Mail Removed)...


>>> The above is technically true, but if one tries to export an AVCHD
>>> computer file for archiving, etc., the data rate is still limited to 16 Mbps, the same as it is with Pro 8
>>> --DR


>> Again, not true,


> It is true. If you change ANYTHING in the material on the Vegas 9
> timeline, it will ALL rerender as Main Profile (16 Mbps), not High
> Profile (24 Mbps) when exporting a file. If you don't change anything
> in the material on the timeline, you aren't editing, which seems kinda
> pointless...8^)
> [And, hey, I thought you said you had "PLONKED!" me...! 8^]
> --DR


I do now offer some corrections to the above although they appeared
to be true at the time I tried these things... You can do a "Render
as" export of 24 Mbps edited material from the timeline by setting
the data rate to the maximum available rate of 20 Mbps (still not 24
Mbps, though...) in the custom settings (and "Smart Rendering" doesn't
work). Also in the settings, the default, even with a "Ctrl + M" export
(which has a maximum available data rate of 16 Mbps) is listed as
"High", rather than "Main". The only way to export higher data rate
files is to use the Blu-ray format, but I was unable to import these back
into the project. Again, why bother with all this nonsense when an
excellent alternative is available with HDV? It seems to me that this
whole AVCHD 24 Mbps thing is like trying to use a "monster truck"
as a race car...8^)
--DR


 
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Smarty
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      05-17-2009, 08:04 AM
"David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:gumq2r$emr$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:guko9t$ruj$(E-Mail Removed)...
>> "Smarty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:hglPl.1535$(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> "David Ruether" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:guhtvi$ei7$(E-Mail Removed)...

>


> I do now offer some corrections to the above although they appeared
> to be true at the time I tried these things... You can do a "Render
> as" export of 24 Mbps edited material from the timeline by setting
> the data rate to the maximum available rate of 20 Mbps (still not 24
> Mbps, though...) in the custom settings (and "Smart Rendering" doesn't
> work). Also in the settings, the default, even with a "Ctrl + M" export
> (which has a maximum available data rate of 16 Mbps) is listed as
> "High", rather than "Main". The only way to export higher data rate
> files is to use the Blu-ray format, but I was unable to import these back
> into the project. Again, why bother with all this nonsense when an
> excellent alternative is available with HDV? It seems to me that this
> whole AVCHD 24 Mbps thing is like trying to use a "monster truck"
> as a race car...8^)
> --DR
>


Well, once again, your "corrected facts" are partially correct and again
overlook how DVD Architect, an integral part of the Vegas suite, can be used
to take full rate 24 Mbit/sec edited content and deliver a total 24 Mbit/sec
final disk.

I will agree that Vegas itself, the editor portion of the suite, is indeed
limited by its current template / profile to 24 Mbits/sec under some
circumstances, 20 Mbits/sec under some, and that the present situation is
badly lacking for those who own the Vegas suite but do not have other tools
at their disposal. These caveats were alluded to in my original post. For
those of us who do edit 24 Mbit/sec content, very competent editing tools
such as TMPG Express 4 do the job very handily.

To be more specific, not one but two hardware acceleration methods have been
added to TMPG Express, one using the CUDA/ATI graphics card as a rendering
platform added last year, and more recently a second, blazingly fast AVCHD
accelerator using Toshiba's SpurEngine hardware. These make AVCHD editing
extremely quickly for all types of rendering.

http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/te4xp.html

I do not want to digress from the original Vegas suite any further, but
point this out to further clarify and explain that your approach to
understanding AVCHD and describing is is very shallow, and extremely
prejudicial.

Had you merely missed the true functionality and left it at that, I would
still complain. But you insist on punctuating your "reviews" and "findings"
with the gleeful, childish comments which inevitably attempt to bolster your
original false hypothesis that AVCHD is somehow inferior to HDV.

Through the lens of someone who does not routinely author and edit in AVCHD,
your comments neither serve the newsgroup community accurately nor do they
reflect a balanced understanding of how tools can and are used together to
achieve AVCHD workflow.

I will not even attempt to elaborate on the methods being used to create and
author even higher bitrate (greater than 24 Mbit/sec) AVCHD disks using
BluRay BDMV folders with patch programs and hex editing of the index files.
Suffice it to say that those who are working with AVCHD and h.264 on a
routine basis are not sitting still waiting for Sony or anybody else to make
a "template". As broadcast/ENG and AVC-Intra gain traction, these tools
will, no doubt, increase. Although Sony may be a slow starter in the high
end AVCHD markets for both consumer and pro users, I am altogether certain
that the market share being garnered by Canon and Panasonic in the camcorder
arena has not been unnoticed by Sony management. Their recent, stunning,
1.26 billion dollar loss, their first in 14 years, will no doubt drive them
back into competition in this very rapidly growing market.

http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/69...llar-Loss.html

Further......AVCHD Lite, yet another variant which has been introduced in
the last 6 months for movie making on lower cost consumer still image
cameras, now shows up on low cost consumer digital cameras. With cheaper
cameras making AVCHD in the mass market space where all of the digital
camera makers and consumers play, an inevitable flood of new software for
AVCHD editing will add to the dozen or so programs already on the market
which handle AVCHD editing and authoring.

Smarty










 
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David Ruether
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      05-17-2009, 05:23 PM

"Smarty" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:2yPPl.1855$(E-Mail Removed)...

>... DVD Architect, an integral part of the Vegas suite, can be used to take full rate 24 Mbit/sec edited content and deliver a
>total 24 Mbit/sec final disk.
>
> I will agree that Vegas itself, the editor portion of the suite, is indeed limited by its current template / profile to 24
> Mbits/sec under some circumstances,


I could find no AVCHD 24 Mbps template anywhere in Vegas 9 - only
one with 20 Mbps, although one can export 25 Mbps Blu-ray files...

> 20 Mbits/sec under some, and that the present situation is badly lacking for those who own the Vegas suite but do not have other
> tools at their disposal.


This is what I have been pointing out - that Vegas Pro 9 cannot, itself,
export edited 24 Mbps AVCHD files. For a very recently updated editing
software product, with a growing base of camcorders now out there that
operate using this format, one does wonder about the value for most of
upgrading to this product (although it does have some particular new
capabilities of interest to a few people).

> These caveats were alluded to in my original post. For those of us who do edit 24 Mbit/sec content, very competent editing tools
> such as TMPG Express 4 do the job very handily.


But the discussion is about the capabilities of Vegas Pro 9...

> To be more specific, not one but two hardware acceleration methods have been added to TMPG Express, one using the CUDA/ATI
> graphics card as a rendering platform added last year, and more recently a second, blazingly fast AVCHD accelerator using
> Toshiba's SpurEngine hardware. These make AVCHD editing extremely quickly for all types of rendering.
>
> http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/te4xp.html
>
> I do not want to digress from the original Vegas suite any further, but point this out to further clarify and explain that your
> approach to understanding AVCHD and describing is is very shallow, and extremely prejudicial.


Again, the discussion is about the capabilities of Pro 9 itself. While it is
useful to know about alternatives in both software and hardware, that
is not the point. (Look at the title of this thread...;-)

> Had you merely missed the true functionality and left it at that, I would still complain. But you insist on punctuating your
> "reviews" and "findings" with the gleeful, childish comments which inevitably attempt to bolster your original false hypothesis
> that AVCHD is somehow inferior to HDV.


By agreement among most, the best 17 Mbps AVCHD is, as a medium,
inferior in image quality to the best HDV. Only with the best 24 Mbps
AVCHD does the image quality approach or equal the best HDV. While
AVCHD is more convenient to shoot and transfer than HDV, what matters
for many is the ultimate quality, the ability to easily and cheaply edit the
material, and the ability to archive it in a reasonably durable way. Vegas
Pro 9 does not easily satisfy those requirements (although the edited material
can be transcoded and exported as Blu-ray files and saved on Blu-ray disks
and/or on hard drives).

> Through the lens of someone who does not routinely author and edit in AVCHD, your comments neither serve the newsgroup community
> accurately nor do they reflect a balanced understanding of how tools can and are used together to achieve AVCHD workflow.
>
> I will not even attempt to elaborate on the methods being used to create and author even higher bitrate (greater than 24 Mbit/sec)
> AVCHD disks using BluRay BDMV folders with patch programs and hex editing of the index files. Suffice it to say that those who are
> working with AVCHD and h.264 on a routine basis are not sitting still waiting for Sony or anybody else to make a "template". As
> broadcast/ENG and AVC-Intra gain traction, these tools will, no doubt, increase. Although Sony may be a slow starter in the high
> end AVCHD markets for both consumer and pro users, I am altogether certain that the market share being garnered by Canon and
> Panasonic in the camcorder arena has not been unnoticed by Sony management. Their recent, stunning, 1.26 billion dollar loss,
> their first in 14 years, will no doubt drive them back into competition in this very rapidly growing market.
>
> http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/69...llar-Loss.html
>
> Further......AVCHD Lite, yet another variant which has been introduced in the last 6 months for movie making on lower cost
> consumer still image cameras, now shows up on low cost consumer digital cameras. With cheaper cameras making AVCHD in the mass
> market space where all of the digital camera makers and consumers play, an inevitable flood of new software for AVCHD editing will
> add to the dozen or so programs already on the market which handle AVCHD editing and authoring.
>
> Smarty


The above is interesting overall and possibly useful speculation at the low
end, but at the high end it reminds me of something like, "I just bought a
$600 motor scooter, and I want to go 90 MPH on it - so I bought a Harley
Davidson motorcycle and a side car and modified the side car (with many
new components) so the scooter could be placed in it, and now, with the
help of someone to operate the motorcycle, I can actually ride my motor
scooter while it is going 90 MPH!". 8^)
Think "practical and straightforward"...;-)
--DR


 
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