102 Print Developer

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Lloyd Erlick, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest

    September 20, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

    I've been having beautiful results on Ilford
    Warmtone FB material (MGW) with this
    developer...

    Prints are gorgeous after selenium toning. (I
    use KRST diluted 1+5, for ten minutes, at
    about 32-34C.)


    ____________________________________
    102 Print Developer
    (Original due to Edmund Lowe)
    Potassium Version,
    Working Solution.


    Distilled Water 1000 ml
    at working temperature.

    Potassium Sulfite
    Anhydrous 15 g

    Potassium Phosphate 32 g
    Tribasic monohydrate

    Glycin 6 g

    Potassium Bromide 5 g
    ______________________________________
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 20, 2007
    #1
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  2. An interesting formula. I don't think I've seen another
    print developer with Glycin as the sole developing agent.
    Mostly, it seems to be used in conjunction with Hydroqinon
    or both Hydroquinone and Metol as in Agfa/Ansco 130 but
    there is no reason it should not work on its own as a warm
    tone developer.
    How active is it? I mean how long is your developing
    time and does it seem to have any effect on paper speed?
     
    Richard Knoppow, Sep 21, 2007
    #2
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  3. What does the Phosphate do?
    Makes sense ... is there a warm-tone using just phenidone, sort
    of a POTA for Paper?
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Sep 21, 2007
    #3
  4. AFAIK no. The problem is that Phenidone and sulfite is
    just not very active. Its possible it might work in a
    stronger Alkali.
    That's why it produces such low contrast. Most of the
    warm tone formulas I have are very old. They contain
    Hydroquinone alone, Hydroquinone with Glycin,
    Chlorohydroquinone and I have even seen a formula for
    devloping prints in Pyro.
    Warm tone developrs can be made with Phenidone, I think
    Ilford has a formula.
    BTW, I found a couple of Edwal formulas by searching
    Google Patents. Both were fine grain film developers.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Sep 21, 2007
    #4
  5. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest


    September 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

    It was the only formula I could find with
    Glycin as the only developing agent.

    I have been using Metol as the sole
    developing agent in a print developer for
    some time (Ansco 120 formula, with potassium
    salts instead of sodium). I've used Glycin in
    the past (actually managed to use up a bottle
    of it before it spoiled). So when I got the
    urge to buy some more Glycin this time, I
    thought I should use it alone in a developer
    to get a real feel for its action.

    I swap the sodium salts in the original
    formula for their potassium counterparts.
    This yields a noticeably warmer result that I
    find very rewarding, as Adams would phrase
    it.

    It's a relatively low activity developer. I
    use a three minute development time. For
    about the first forty five seconds there is
    close to no density observable. Of course,
    it's under dim light, so there probably is
    some slight density, but basically for the
    first minute the image is barely visible. I
    use a lot of black backgrounds in my
    portraits, and of course it's the black areas
    that appear first. They take roughly a minute
    before significant density appears.

    Effect on paper speed is hard to say. I've
    had a bit of a struggle with some Forte PW-14
    Warmtone lately. That paper is definitely
    slow (at least double the exposure I give the
    same negative on Ilford MGW). I've made no
    scientific measurements, but it seems to me
    the paper (Ilford MGW) responds very
    similarly in my usual 120 Metol and the 102
    Glycin formula.

    Recently someone remarked that they were
    looking for a developer that would yield warm
    print results with no need for toner. (This
    might have been on the PureSilver list, or
    maybe APUG, sure glad all this still exists!)
    Anyway, it seems to me there is a bit of
    pleasant warm glow of Glycin in the freshly
    developed and fixed but not toned print after
    development in the Glycin 102 developer. As
    I've commented before, my color perception is
    not exact (they let me drive cars but not fly
    attack helicopters ...), so maybe the prints
    are even warmer than I think after
    development.

    However, the real thing about this developer
    is the result of selenium toning on the
    print. I know I'm prone to all the usual
    psychological effects of color and looking
    too much, but I really, really like the
    result of ten minutes in KRST that is fairly
    concentrated, and maybe even warm, too. Skin
    tones have a lovely golden glow, and blonde
    hair looks radiant. I wonder if anyone has
    made scientific observations of Glycin
    results? The lore has it that Glycin gives a
    certain 'glow' to print tones, and I have to
    admit I think I see that. I'm sure it could
    be wishful thinking, but in any case, the
    prints are very beautiful.

    regards,
    --le
    ________________________________
    Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
    website: www.heylloyd.com
    telephone: 416-686-0326
    email:
    ________________________________
    --
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 21, 2007
    #5
  6. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest



    September 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

    Well, now you're getting technical. I guess
    it takes the place of carbonates in other
    developers, so it's the accelerator. Mostly
    I'm a follower in photo chemistry. So if
    Adams says Ansco 120 is good, I'm willing to
    go along and base all my variations on that.

    Edmund Lowe specified sodium phosphate (TSP)
    in 102. I just found a potassium version of
    the same chemical and tried it out (my
    supplier labeled it Potassium Phosphate
    Tribasic, Monohydrate). I also reduced the
    amount of sulfite by nearly half, because
    potassium sulfite is hard to get. I can't see
    any effect of the reduction in print results.

    Basically I viewed it as an easy way to get
    to know Glycin with very little associated
    chemistry.

    regards,
    --le
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 21, 2007
    #6
  7. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest



    September 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

    They would be interesting to see. Would it be
    a lot of work to post them in a chunk?


    regards,
    --le
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 21, 2007
    #7
  8. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest



    September 21, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

    Phenidone is not an everlasting developing
    agent like Metol. I can't possibly keep up
    with the degradation of both Glycin and
    Phenidone if they're both in my darkroom at
    the same time.

    I thought Phenidone had the reputation of
    yielding cool results?

    By the way, a very interesting print
    development agent is para amino phenol, as in
    Rodinal. It is also interesting to add it to
    other print developers. My color perception
    sees print results from pAP as quite a 'hard'
    brown (not as warm-red as others, but more
    enamel-like in appearance).

    regards,
    --le
    ________________________________
    Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
    website: www.heylloyd.com
    telephone: 416-686-0326
    email:
    ________________________________
    --
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 21, 2007
    #8
  9. Hi,

    Lloyd Erlick wrote:

    snip
    As a starting point for experimentation, what dilution of Rodinal did
    you use and how much time did it take to get a viable image?

    It is also interesting to add it to
    What proportions did you use with what print developers.

    Thanks!

    Cheers,
    Bogdan

    ________________________________________________________________
    Bogdan Karasek
    Montréal, Québec bogdan at bogdanphoto.com
    Canada www.bogdanphoto.com

    "I photograph my reality"
    ________________________________________________________________
     
    Bogdan Karasek, Sep 21, 2007
    #9

  10. This substance is known better as Tri-Sodium-Phosphate
    or TSP and is the same as the cleaning material. It is not
    used much now because phosphates are water polutants. TSP
    is, besides being a fairly high pH alkali a sequestering
    agent for some of the salts in hard water. There are
    numerous developer formulas using it although I don't have a
    ready list. I am not sure what, if any, special properties
    TSP has photographically. It seems to have been used mainly
    to prevent sludging or deposition in developing tanks due to
    hard water.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Sep 21, 2007
    #10
  11. These are mostly pretty well known formulas like Kodak
    D-52 and a couple of Agfa/Ansco formulas. Gevaert also had
    some formulas which seem to have been unique to them.
    Some of these developers are simply lower activity
    versions of standard developers, them main difference being
    lower pH. A couple use Hydroquinone as the sole developing
    agent and a couple use Glycin. I have to look for the
    Pyrochatachin and the Chlorhydroquinon formulas, I don't
    remember which book they are in.
    Reportedly standard staining Pyro film developers, like
    the familiar ABC formula, work on paper and produce a stain
    image. This might be interesting to experiment with. Pyro
    stain is a pigment, not a dye, so its quite permanent.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Sep 21, 2007
    #11
  12. Rodinal makes a good although expensive print developer
    at about 1:25. A very long time ago Agfa actually advertised
    this in Rodinal ads.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Sep 21, 2007
    #12
  13. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest


    September 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

    Or which box the book is in??? (well, this is
    true of me. sigh.)

    --le
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 22, 2007
    #13
  14. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest



    September 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

    I'm sure that is the reason it's stocked on
    the shelves of hardware stores large and
    small (as a degreaser and cleaning agent). I
    buy it in the same waxed two-liter cardboard
    packs they use for milk. What a funny world.
    I suppose taking it out of the laundry
    detergent took most of it out of the lake.

    Potassium Phosphate was a bit more difficult
    to source locally, but far from impossible. I
    had to ride the transit ...

    regards,
    --le
    ________________________________
    Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
    website: www.heylloyd.com
    telephone: 416-686-0326
    email:
    ________________________________
    --
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 22, 2007
    #14
  15. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest

    September 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,


    On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:29:14 -0400, Bogdan


    I found that diluting Rodinal (I did this
    when it was still an Agfa product) 1+15 --
    1+20 yielded very nice prints. A tablespoon
    or two of sodium or potassium sulfite will
    help it last more than a short time in the
    tray.

    It performed very much like any paper
    developer one might use. I generally use
    three minutes development time, and Rodinal
    was no different.

    ....


    I did that when I had a bottle of pAP
    developing agent from the Formulary. I found
    three to six grams in a liter of working
    solution of some other developer (mostly I
    did this with the Ansco 120 formula) changed
    the look of the result nicely.

    Again, it's far from a dramatic, exaggerated
    change in performance of the developer. I'm
    not making any marketing-speak claims.
    Results are subtle and far from obvious. A
    darkroom worker must be employed to detect
    ....

    regards,
    --le
    ________________________________
    Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
    website: www.heylloyd.com
    telephone: 416-686-0326
    email:
    ________________________________
    --
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 22, 2007
    #15
  16. Lloyd Erlick

    Lloyd Erlick Guest



    September 22, 2007, from Lloyd Erlick,

    I find myself compelled to scan nearly
    everything that crosses my path. If I found
    one of these ads I'd certainly make a
    screen-filler out of it ...

    I think the Formulary still supplies pAP.
    It's important to get the HCl form, not the
    pure base, which will not dissolve easily (or
    at all, frankly). It's a lot cheaper this way
    than to buy actual Rodinal.

    regards,
    --le
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Sep 22, 2007
    #16
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