2 questions about digital cameras

Discussion in 'Digital Point & Shoot Camera' started by Neil Jones, Dec 18, 2008.

  1. Neil Jones

    Neil Jones Guest


    I am looking into digital cameras. Previously I owned a Canon Powershot
    G3. After I sold that, my wife and I got a Powershot SD1000 as a gift.
    Now I am looking around again for camera that I like.

    At the time I got Powershot G3, it was considered a "Prosumer" camera.
    Now, when I searched for a "prosumer camera", I get a listing of Digital
    SLR cameras too. I am trying to stay with "point and shoot" although I
    do love some of the SLR cameras that I found (which are out of my price
    range now).

    I do like the Canon Powershot G10. Considering it's lineage, I would
    consider it as a prosumer camera. Where do the experts in the field
    create the demarcation for point-and-shoot cameras between the consumer,
    prosumer, professional cameras?

    My second question is, What other brands are out there that are
    competing for the Canon G10 consumers? (looking for prosumer
    point-and-shoot cameras list only). This way I can compare them and buy
    the one that fits my needs.

    Thank you in advance for any information and advice.

    Neil Jones, Dec 18, 2008
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  2. Neil Jones

    Nomen Nescio Guest

    What the Hell is a "prosumer" camera, the G3 is a "point and shoot" the word
    "prosumer" is an incorrect term. Technically a Canon 40D is a "prosumer"
    camera, as it has pro features in a consumer price point. Video cameras seem
    to started the therm "prosumer" with cameras like the Canon GL2.
    Nomen Nescio, Dec 18, 2008
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  3. Hi Neal,

    In the compact class, prosumer defines a camera with full manual control of
    settings like aperture, shutter speed and so on. Also, it normally has
    additional features like external flash shoe, a good fast lens, maybe tilt
    and swivel LCD, iintegrated ND filter and so on. Yes, the G series has
    always be regarded as a prosumer cam. Unfortunately, the G10 does not have a
    swivel lcd and fast lens anymore (G6 was the last one), but has a wider zoom
    range and IS now. And lots of megapixels. See
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong10/ for a full review. I don´t like
    the samples much. There is too much smearing of details even at iso 80.
    A similar camera s the Nikon Coolpix P6000

    Also look for those so called "bridge cams" or slr-lke superzoom cams that
    have a very
    wide stabilized zoom range like the Canon SX10, Panasonic Lumix FZ50,
    Olympus SP-570UZ or Fuji Finepix S9100.
    You can try to search via http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp for
    the features you need.

    Markus Fuenfrocken, Dec 18, 2008
  4. Neil Jones

    Hans Dull Guest

    The G10 isn't that bad! But what about the
    Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX37 (5x) from 25 - 125 mm?
    Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX3?
    It has a _very fine_ Lens (2.5x) equiv. to 24 - 60 mm.
    For me it would be my one (Fine distortion, Noise levels, external
    Flash, ...) but for now I've got the Fujifilm F30 which is better than any
    other none DSLR <:-D.

    Look at dpreview.com and see the differences ;-)
    Hans Dull, Dec 18, 2008
  5. Neil Jones

    -hh Guest

    I've been doing a fairly similar search and have been a bit
    disappointed with how limited the selections are getting for something
    that's not completely "dumbed down" through deletion of elements such
    as manual controls, Aperture priority, etc. In short, all the
    features that our 5 year old Canon A80 came with.

    Within the Canon line, my short personal list is non-proprietary
    batteries (ie, runs on AAs) and while maintaining a compact size (A80
    footprint), the only acceptable product for me appears to be the A590
    IS. The A1000 and A2000 cameras come close, but lack some controls.
    And unfortunately, none of these have a tilt-swivel LCD.

    For other brands, I think the Panasonic LZ8 or LZ10 may be fairly
    comparable? Not sure about Nikon (haven't looked).

    (just looked specifically at the P6000)
    Specs look promising for me, except for my desire of AA batteries.

    The general challenge with this class of cameras is in their size
    (form factor): they've grown just enough such that they're not really
    a "pocketable".

    The question of 'pocketability' kind of comes down to two tiers, which
    are along the lines of "short pocket" versus "pants pocket" (or
    jacket). For the latter, I'd say that something in the general
    dimensions of 4.5" x 2.5" and 1.25"-1.5" thick is probably the
    practical limit. There is some lattitude for a 'chunky handle grip',
    but I think that it starts to be borderline when the thickness has
    both a grip bulge and a lens bulge. Its not a particularly relishing

    Each time I start to look in earnest, I seem to end up on eBay,
    looking for older, discontinued models.

    -hh, Dec 18, 2008
  6. Neil Jones

    Charles Guest

    The gal or guy pushing the shutter button determines if a camera is amateur
    or professional.

    No doubt that almost all professionals use DSLRs as their main bodies, but
    some use higher-end compacts (point and shoots) as backups. Some use those

    "Prosumer" is a messy tag that will never be agreed upon as to what the hell
    it exactly means. A "bridge camera" is another fuzzy term.

    Just define your goals and do your homework and forget about the stupid
    Charles, Dec 18, 2008
  7. Neil Jones

    Charles Guest

    You and your dozens of clones have lost all traction here.
    Charles, Dec 19, 2008
  8. Neil Jones

    Charles Guest

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    There is movement afoot to take you off the air.
    Charles, Dec 19, 2008
  9. Neil Jones

    Neil Jones Guest

    Thank you for replying. This explanation is very helpful. When I
    bought my Powershot G3 in late 2004, the term "Prosumer" was used a lot
    since, at that time it was one of the high-end P&S cameras. Technology
    has evolved a lot and now I am hearing other terms as SuperZooms,
    MegaZooms and Micro Four Thirds (that is something I learned today).

    I love SLRs (still have the Nikon Film SLR) but would try to avoid them
    as an amateur photographer. They get more and more expensive with the
    lenses and other supporting equipment. The worst part of DSLR cameras
    is that they are NOT convenient for vacation travels. A good P&S is
    great for travel. However you (atleast me) do want almost SLR like
    features. This is where I am fitting into the camera landscape.

    Most of the current cameras have video recording capabilities. While it
    is not most important thing for me, I have been checking/comparing
    cameras that fall in the G10(Prosumer or whatever) class of cameras.

    The battery life is another thing that is very important for me as well.
    I have ruled out Canon Powershot SX10 IS, since they take AA batteries
    (but recommend NiMH).

    Based on the research using this criteria, the Panasonic Lumix DMC FZ28
    and Canon Powershot G10 are looking good. I will see what Santa will
    bring. :)

    Thank you once again for replying.

    Neil Jones, Dec 19, 2008
  10. Neil Jones

    SMS Guest

    Depends on the vacation. I take my D-SLR on some vacations. Yeah, it's
    not as convenient as the P&S but some vacations are better enjoyed with
    the capabilities of a D-SLR (i.e. Alaska, trips to national parks). By
    the time you've loaded up your day pack with two liters of water, lunch,
    etc., the added weight and bulk of a D-SLR is lost in the noise.
    Remember, you don't have to take every lens you own, one or two lenses
    is sufficient.

    "SLR-Like" is really misleading. Does that mean interchangeable lenses?
    Then only the Panasonic Lumix G1 qualifies. Does it mean no AF lag? Then
    no P&S qualifies. Does it mean wide dynamic range? Then no P&S
    qualifies. Does it mean good wide angle and telephoto capability with
    quality glass? Then no P&S qualifies.

    What you should do is to buy the smallest D-SLR, the Olympus E-420. It's
    not much larger than a super-zoom (smaller in some cases) and will
    perform far, far better.
    Yes, it's really too bad that Canon cheaped out in that way. Yet AA
    batteries aren't as bad as they were in the past with the advent of
    Eneloop cells with low self-discharge.
    SMS, Dec 19, 2008
  11. Neil Jones

    SMS Guest

    The G3 was one of the best G series cameras. Still had the articulated
    LCD (which the G10 doesn't have), and they didn't go crazy with
    megapixels so noise isn't as bad. Too bad there's no CHDK for the G1,
    G2, G3, G5, or G6.

    The G10 is of the same lineage, but they've decontented it. The G10 is
    $415. You can get a D-SLR for about that, though you'll need to spend
    something on lenses if you don't already have some EOS lenses.
    SMS, Dec 19, 2008
  12. Neil Jones

    -hh Guest

    Plus some of us consider the ubiquitous and non-proprietary AA
    batteries to be a feature, not a liability, as it means we're able to
    reduce the proliferation of chargers and types of spares we carry (in
    context of other additional electronic devices also in use). Its just
    a different perspective and slight shift in personal priorities.

    -hh, Dec 19, 2008
  13. Neil Jones

    -hh Guest

    Agreed; I alluded to that with 'ubiquitous', but could have been more
    That's another possibility, and while it does solve the "oops, forgot
    to charge my batteries", it doesn't generally relieve the problems of
    "how much stuff" is being carried.

    Another factor in their favor is that even superior quality
    (2000+mAhr) NiMH AA's are a good bang for the buck. I paid $15 for a
    pack of 4 last month at B&H, whereas when one looks at the proprietary
    camera batteries, you're often in for a royal soaking. For example,
    the ~800mAh CGR-S006 battery for the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ28 is $50
    for the OEM and $28 for the 3rd party aftermarket version. And the
    1400mAh BP-511A for Canon DSLR's is effectively no better: $50 and
    $25. When you compare by actual power stored, the AAs are around
    1/10th the cost per mAh.

    -hh, Dec 19, 2008
  14. Neil Jones

    SMS Guest

    Wrong, on many counts.

    First, the after-market CGA-S006 is $20
    ("http://sterlingtek.com/pacgcgcgforp.html") while the aftermarket BP511
    is $12 ("http://sterlingtek.com/caeodicaba.html"). It's not really fair
    to look at one of the most expensive places to buy after-market
    batteries when you make your calculations (though even at the B&H prices
    you're incorrect). Note that the Sterlingtek prices are by no means the
    lowest available, but I didn't want to use some of the prices of eBay
    vendors of unknown quality.

    Second, power is not measured in mAH, it's measured in W (or mW).

    Thrid, batteries don't store power, they store energy.

    Fourth, power is not what you need to compare, energy is what you need
    to measure, in WH (or mWH) when you compare costs.

    Here are some true comparisons:

    A $20, 7.4V, 1800mAH, CGA-S006 stores 13.3WH of energy at a cost of
    $1.50 per WH.

    A $12 7.4V, 2000mAH BP511 stores 14.8WH of energy at a cost of $0.81 per WH.

    A $2.50 1.2V, 2000mAH, Sanyo Eneloop AA cell stores 2.4WH of energy at a
    cost of $1.04 per WH.

    So in reality, the Li-Ion battery can cost slightly more or less than
    the AA batteries, depending on which Li-Ion battery you need.

    The real issues regarding the pros and cons of the different batteries
    are not related to cost. The sole advantage of AA batteries is that in a
    pinch you can buy alkaline AA batteries almost anywhere in the world
    (and you're much more likely to need to buy batteries in a pinch for an
    AA powered camera!).

    For a good web site on this topic, type "nimh vs li-ion" into the Google
    search box then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky". It's the premier web site
    for information on camera batteries and their trade-offs.
    SMS, Dec 20, 2008
  15. Neil Jones

    Guest Guest

    translated: my own site comes up and i get revenue if you click, but i
    will suggest using google so it won't look like i'm shilling.
    Guest, Dec 20, 2008
  16. No it isn't semantics at all. Comparing mAH of Li-Ion batteries versus
    NiMH batteries as hh has done is meaningless, which is one reason that
    he came up with the idea that AA batteries cost 1/10 as much as Li-Ion
    batteries. I don't think he made this mistake intentionally. It's
    easy to make this mistake if you're used to car batteries (all
    nominally 12 volt) which are rated in AH.

    Some P&S cameras use two AA batteries, for a voltage of 2.4V (for
    NiMH), some use four AA batteries for a voltage of 4.8V (for NiMH).
    For Li-Ion powered cameras, some use a one cell battery at 3.7V, some
    use a two cell battery at 7.4V. When you compare the storage capacity
    of camera batteries you _must_ look at WH, which is the product of the
    mAH and the voltage.

    If you're actually interested in the facts on the cost differential,
    go to "http://batterydata.com/" and go to the section "$ £ ¥ € лв ₪ NT
    $ å…ƒ Z$". I compare the cost per WH of various OEM and after-market
    batteries from different sources. Or do your own spreadsheet. Sorry to
    confuse you with the facts.
    I get no revenue if you click. The only time I ever get revenue is if
    someone uses one of the affiliate links to Amazon or B&H or Adorama.
    It's $100 in a good quarter. The reason I suggest that people use the
    search engine is because I want it to be clear that these sites are
    very highly rated. It's a question of credibility.
    Chinese Bicycle Guy, Dec 20, 2008
  17. If a Li-on battery camera has a battery recharging socket then it's
    easy enough to make up an AA battery of the appropriate voltage with
    the right plug on the end. Then you can have the best of both worlds.
    Chris Malcolm, Dec 20, 2008
  18. Neil Jones

    SMS Guest

    Very few Li-Ion powered cameras (or AA powered cameras for that matter)
    have internal chargers any more. My Canon G2 has that feature, but
    current G series models don't have it.

    You could still charge the Li-Ion battery with ten AA cells and a 12V
    charger. All this assumes that you're in a place with no AC or DC power.
    But the advantage of the AA cells is that you just buy some Alkaline or
    Lithium disposable batteries at the convenience store, and you don't
    need to worry about chargers, cables, etc.

    For a D-SLR, most of the vertical grips can take six AA cells or two
    Li-Ion packs.
    SMS, Dec 20, 2008
  19. Neil Jones

    J. Clarke Guest

    Buy a lot of them though--on some cameras alkalines are only good for
    a dozen or so shots, and lithiums are not likely to be convenience
    store items anywhere that there's no power to charge NiMH or lithium
    J. Clarke, Dec 20, 2008
  20. Neil Jones

    Guest Guest

    yes it is. hh mistakenly called it power instead of mah and you jumped
    on him. it's obvious what he meant.
    that's a laugh. just because something shows up in google doesn't make
    it credible, plus a lot of what's on your page has been discredited.
    Guest, Dec 20, 2008
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