25p 50p does anyone use these options?

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by Brian, Dec 14, 2011.

  1. Brian

    Brian Guest

    I noticed that many camcorders now offer 25p, 50p (or 24p, 60p) options but
    i can't find a use for this...maybe I'm missing something. I read that 24p
    gives you a film look go your movie, but then there are problems if you are
    panning and some of the detail in the shadow area is lost.

    I'd be interested in posts from people who have used this option or know of
    a good use for these options.
     
    Brian, Dec 14, 2011
    #1
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  2. I use the Panasonic HDC-TM700 partly because it can shoot
    1920x1080-60P, and partly because it has an unusually wide
    and sharp lens for a consumer camcorder. The image quality
    at 60P is exceptional! (It's SUPOIB! ;-) It has the best
    image detail and also motion smoothness of any of the
    available shooting options. I have tried other modes for
    comparison, with the following results: 17Mbps shot natively
    in-camera (good, but it's "clearly" inferior to 28Mbps 60P,
    for both shooting data rate and "P" vs. "I" reasons ["P" has
    twice the info on-screen at any given moment as "I" with all
    else being equal]); 60P shot natively in-camera and then
    converted in-camera to 17Mbps 60I (this looks almost as good
    as 60P original material, and better than 17Mbps 60I original
    shot in-camera, but it holds up less well with manipulation
    during editing); 24P, is, well, a mystery to me why anyone
    would choose an inferior frame rate for both detail and motion
    smoothness (in order to simulate the faults of film, I guess,
    but that seems kinda silly to me...). 720P is also a mystery
    to me (it looks inferior to 1080P). If the end result is a
    Blu-ray disk, unfortunately so far one cannot write a
    1920x1080-60P disk - but preparing/editing the material
    in 60P before writing it in 60I insures the best possible
    Blu-ray quality (and a Blu-ray disk can be written at a higher
    data rate than the original - up to about 40Mbps). Editing
    AVCHD is no fun, though - it takes a "monster" computer to
    edit 1920x1080-60P material efficiently, unlike 1440x1080-60I
    HDV, which requires only a simple dual-core computer and cheap
    software (my current computer is one with Sony Vegas Pro 11,
    an Intel i7 2600K [overclockable] CPU, 16 gigs of DDR3 1600
    RAM, an EVGA video card with the nVidia 570 chip [with 480
    cores and 2.5 gigs of RAM in it], an Asus MB that permits
    overclocking the CPU, and many fans - and this is ALMOST good
    enough [I will try overclocking the CPU over the weekend...;-]).
    I shoulda stuck with HDV...;-)

    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Dec 14, 2011
    #2
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  3. Brian

    Ty Ford Guest

    Move to Europe!

    Regards,

    Ty Ford


    --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
    Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
    Guitar player?:
     
    Ty Ford, Dec 14, 2011
    #3
  4. Brian

    HerHusband Guest

    I use the Panasonic HDC-TM700 partly because it can shoot
    The only downside to the TM700 is that it's not waterproof. :) We just
    went on vacation and I was a little too close to the water while filming on
    the beach. I was caught by an unexpected wave that splashed on the
    camcorder. I lifted it up and dried it off as quickly as possible, but the
    little speaker in my TM700 quit working. No more tones while activating
    different functions, and no sound when playing back videos on the camera
    (something I rarely do anyway).

    I didn't notice any other problems, it still records fine. The sound has
    come back a couple of times, only to quit again later, so who knows if it
    will ever work properly again.

    I do have a waterproof Panasonic DMC-TS3 camera that records 1920x1080p,
    but didn't take it to the beach that day as the TM700 quality is better. I
    won't make that mistake again. :) The TS3 isn't bad though for a small
    pocket camera, better than most I have tried.

    Regarding 24p/25p/50p, I agree, I see no reason to use anything but the
    highest quality 60p. You can always convert to lower frame rates in post if
    needed, but you can't make up what wasn't there in the first place.

    Anthony
     
    HerHusband, Dec 14, 2011
    #4
  5. [email protected]:
    Sigh! But the first thing I do with a new camcorder is turn off
    the noises and shooting light, and I never rely on the camcorder's
    own sound playback. Good that otherwise the camera survived!
    It's not just the resolution (or lens quality, or processing
    quality), it's also the recorded data rate - and the "AVCHD-Lite"
    shot with some pocket cameras is D R E A D F U L !
    50P is the highest quality for PAL (if the data rate is high), but
    24P, 25P, and 17Mbps 60I are not great - and as you point out, even
    60P with other cameras may not be as good as what the TM700 can do at
    60P...;-) But, then comes the matter of editing that difficult format.
    What do you use?
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Dec 14, 2011
    #5
  6. Brian

    HerHusband Guest

    Sigh! But the first thing I do with a new camcorder is turn off
    I'm processing my video clips right now and just noticed a slight muffled
    sound to the recorded audio after the splash. I haven't checked the later
    clips yet to see if it improved once it dried out.

    It's not a big problem as I usually don't keep much of the original audio,
    but it kind of bums me out anyway... :)
    The Panasonic DMC-TS3 isn't too bad at 17Mbps. It's no where near the
    28Mbps of the TM700, but for a pocket cam it is halfway decent. The lens
    isn't on the same level either, but hey, it's water and shock resistant! :)
    As I've mentioned in the past, I always convert the 60P footage to 30P AVI
    clips (using Lagarith lossless codec) using TmpecEnc Xpress. This lets me
    stabilize with deshaker in VirtualDub, or load into other apps if needed
    before editing.

    I use Pinnacle Studio for editing. The new version 15 is supposed to arrive
    any day now.

    Anthony
     
    HerHusband, Dec 15, 2011
    #6
  7. Brian

    Brian Guest

    Do you and others find that scanning with the camera a problem when using
    60p? Do still objects jitter?
     
    Brian, Dec 15, 2011
    #7
  8. Brian

    Brian Guest

    sorry, i mean panning (not scanning).
     
    Brian, Dec 15, 2011
    #8
  9. Brian

    HerHusband Guest

    Hi Brian,
    I haven't noticed any issues with the TM700. I did see effects like that
    with my old Canon HF100 at 30P.

    The only odd effect I see sometimes is a flicker on light and dark objects.
    You can see an example in the trees at the end of my Leavenworth video.

    www.mountain-software.com/videos.htm

    I am not sure what causes it, as it seems to appear at random, mostly with
    high contrast images.

    Anthony
     
    HerHusband, Dec 15, 2011
    #9
  10. [email protected]:
    The camcorder uses electret microphones, and some of the
    charge may have been lost, or water residue may have acted
    as dampening on the diaphragms(???).
    Yuh, and it is so difficult to get good ambient sound with any
    camcorders I've tried except those made by Sony (why don't other
    companies just copy Sony's isolation techniques?).
    8^) Um, apparently there is something to be said for that...;-)
    I prefer to keep the footage at maximum quality throughout,
    dropping to 60I at the end when finally forced to (I've never
    liked 24/30P...). With experiments, I get better sharpness and
    better motion smoothness with 60P, with relatively little loss
    at the end with 60I.
    I've rediscovered Newegg - for instance, a CPU I ordered Wednesday
    arrived today (Thursday) with only a "hurry-up" processing charge
    of $4 and no shipping or tax.
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Dec 15, 2011
    #10
  11. The higher (2X) frame rate of the TM700 definitely helps to
    smooth motion...! ;-)
    What you describe is very evident, especially as playback approaches
    the halfway mark. I also saw several horizontal "glitches" that were
    many scan lines wide...
    My best guess is that it is a stabilization artifact that appears
    under the most difficult conditions for the program to handle
    (likely at moments of maximum short-term camera motion [slight
    jerks]). Does the original footage from the camera show this effect?
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Dec 15, 2011
    #11
  12. Brian

    HerHusband Guest

    David,
    The ocean water was also quite salty so it may be deposited in the
    microphones as well.
    The shock resistance really came in handy when we took a jet ski ride. I
    had the wrist strap around my arm and the camera took quite a beating
    thwacking against the jet ski. I finally gave up and stuck it in the
    storage compartment when I realized I wasn't filming anyway bashing
    against the waves. :) The main problem I had on that outing was the lens
    and view screen kept fogging up. It's not the greatest footage, but it's
    video memories I wouldn't have otherwise.

    I also dropped it on the beach while trying to pick up our towels, picnic
    lunch, etc. Takes a beating and keeps on filming. :)

    I wish someone made a water and bomb proof version of the TM700. :) I'm
    not exactly gentle with my cameras.
    I would love to stay at 1920x1080x60P from beginning to end, but
    unfortunately the applications I use do not support it. 30P is the best
    common denominator for me, and I haven't noticed any major issues. I
    don't shoot a lot of fast action though.
    Yep, I ordered Studio through Newegg. I order most things through
    Newegg, if they have them, as they have fast shipping (usually free) and
    don't charge sales tax (unlike Amazon.com).

    Anthony
     
    HerHusband, Dec 15, 2011
    #12
  13. Salt water is a fairly electrolyte, and can be quite corrosive,
    especially when in contact with different metals (like in a lemon
    battery!).

    It's a bit late for you now and probably not relevant, given that the
    camera was not immersed, but advice I've seen is that if a camera or
    other vulnerable device has been *immersed* in salt water, the first
    thing to do is to immerse it in fresh water to wash out the salt water.

    I don't know if I could make myself do that, however :)
     
    Gene E. Bloch, Dec 15, 2011
    #13
  14. I had to laugh at myself :)

    *strong* electrolyte.
     
    Gene E. Bloch, Dec 15, 2011
    #14
  15. Brian

    HerHusband Guest

    David,
    I don't see the glitches on my end, it may be a streaming issue over the
    internet. Then again, the sleigh ride was bumpy at times which may have
    caused some glitches.
    I think what you are seeing is indeed a stabilization artifact. Deshaker
    can stabilize the image as far as up and down, or side to side movement.
    Unfortunately, when you are moving around in real life you change the
    viewing angle just slightly. When the footage is stabilized images
    sometimes "wave" or "warp" oddly due to the minor viewing angle
    differences. Still, when I compare the original shaky footage with the
    stabilized version, I much prefer the stabilized version. The warping is
    usually not noticeable unless I'm really shaking badly (it's really
    apparent when trying to film and walk at the same time).

    The flicker I am describing may be caused by my TV. I just watched the
    clip on my computer and didn't see the effect I was describing. It didn't
    show up in my full rez video, or the scaled down version I have for my web
    site. However, when I watch the video on my TV (a 42" Samsung Plasma flat
    screen), the dark trees against the white snow flash in and out annoyingly.
    I suspect it may be due to the gain control in the TV or something.

    Anthony
     
    HerHusband, Dec 16, 2011
    #15
  16. I see the horizontal band (very briefly) in both full-screen and small
    image on the first cabin interior pan (very slightly) and in the third
    cabin interior pan (from left to right) about 1/4 way in the video, and
    on the right to left pan across the three story building just before
    midway, very noticeably. Repeated plays or plays at different times show
    the same effects. I also saw "blocking" at one point with night snow, so
    it may be that the original was overcompressed for uploading. The same
    thing may have caused (or at least contributed to) the flashing... The
    "flashing" shows very noticeably in the night exteriors with the lights
    on the trees (it would "bug" me a lot...!;-). When viewing the source
    material in 60P from the camera on a TV, are there any indications of
    the above problems? The banding may still show, but I think the other
    two effects would not be visible (since they are likely artifacts of
    the compression and/or stabilization). I also saw some "rolling shutter"
    distortion near the end, from excessive movement of the camera with a
    CMOS chip while on the sleigh...

    Beautiful place - although I noticed that the steep, slippery metal
    cabin
    roof is aimed for dumping its snow load right on the front door
    area...;-)

    [Going back...]
    This may originate with camera rolling shutter effects, and become
    more obvious as shaking is reduced in post... Some stabilizers reduce
    this (the Sony Vegas 11 is supposed to stabilize in the X, Y, and Z
    axes, and also to reduce rolling shutter distortion, BUT, I have yet
    to get it to work properly [it still has bugs that need to be fixed
    to work at all for me], so I don't know yet if it will work directly
    with 60P material and also produce a 60P result).
    A mystery, since I easily (oh, TOO easily!) see the flashing on my
    computer monitors, both in the smaller version and when played full
    screen. Likely not the cause, but for monitoring video I make sure
    the TV and/or monitor (if they have auto black level), that the
    "feature" can be switched off while evaluating video or still photo
    image quality...

    (Oh, BTW, I have a spare TM700...;-)
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Dec 16, 2011
    #16
  17. Brian

    Brian Guest

    Will if a your video camera still works after being belted about it must be
    a strong video camera.
     
    Brian, Dec 17, 2011
    #17
  18. Brian

    HerHusband Guest

    David,
    I can see the band effect you mention if I watch the video online, but if I
    watch the file locally it is not visible in either the web scaled version,
    or the full 1920x1080 version.
    Yep, the video on my web site has a very low bit rate to keep the file
    sizes down and they do exhibit a lot of blocking in some situations. There
    is little, if any, blocking in the full size files.
    To be honest, I have never checked. I usually don't notice them till I am
    near the end of the project doing the actual editing.
    Deshaker compensates for rolling shutters, it's not perfect, but it helps.

    But I think most of the odd visuals are due to the minute differences in
    camera angles. I read about a stablizer that was in development that could
    supposedly correct for those effects, but haven't heard anymore about it
    since.
    Weird. I don't see the flashing at all on my computer monitor. On my TV
    those trees in the distance at the end of the video flash on and off like a
    strobe light. :)
    That's cool. I had a hard enough time justifying the cost of the one TM700.
    :)

    Anthony
     
    HerHusband, Dec 17, 2011
    #18
  19. Brian

    Brian Guest

    Have you tried adjusting your TV?
     
    Brian, Dec 17, 2011
    #19
  20. [email protected]:
    I would expect this, given the likely high compression for the
    web image I see...
    After the conversion to 30P and the stabilization...:-(
    Prodad's new Mercalli II is supposed to compensate every-which-way,
    but Vegas 11's is supposed to be the same...
    But not the trees at night with Christmas lights??? These strobe "like
    mad"
    here...
    Ah, well..., I don't need two...;-)
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Dec 17, 2011
    #20
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