A different tak on Photo-manipulation.

Discussion in 'Photography' started by Savageduck, Oct 9, 2011.

  1. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    This was shared on G+ this morning. It is very interesting with regard
    to new technology and photo-manipulation.

    Take a look at the imbedded video. The narrator has got what is
    possibly the dullest presentation voice ever put to tape, but that does
    not detract from what he is demonstrating.
    < http://www.tekgoblin.com/2011/10/09/re-defining-photo-manipulation/ >
    Savageduck, Oct 9, 2011
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  2. Savageduck

    Pete A Guest

    I hope this kind of technology will inspire creativity in much the same
    way as computer-generated music has done. There are some very fine
    tunes around that are too complex for musicians to play "live" let
    alone the lifetime it would take to compose an album using traditional

    I'm surprised that we don't have cameras which analyse the scene then
    display in the EVF a choice of framing options for the operator to
    consider. It's a just an extension of the built-in scene recognition
    Pete A, Oct 9, 2011
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  3. Savageduck

    PeterN Guest

    Mind over voice. Ever hear Bill Gates speak?
    Very interesting technology. I can see a lot of uses.
    PeterN, Oct 9, 2011
  4. Savageduck

    RichA Guest

    What kind of person wants to listen to machine-made music? Same kind
    of dead-eyed soul-less people who would want to watch robots proxy-
    boxing for humans?

    RichA, Oct 10, 2011
  5. Savageduck

    Alfred Molon Guest

    Alfred Molon, Oct 10, 2011
  6. Savageduck

    Pete A Guest

    Your URL is totally lost on me.

    To answer your question "What kind of person wants to listen to
    machine-made music?" I can only reply "I don't know what kind of
    person, but they number in the millions." I address the sterility
    aspect you inferred at the end of this post.

    For those of us unable to attend live performances, recordings are
    worthwhile entertainment as are machine-synthesized/generated
    instruments, timings, and rhythms.

    Custom-built cathedral pipe organs are the ultimate in music creation
    machines. Each has has it's own quirks and has to be operated by a
    master musician for best effect. These machines, in their environment,
    are capable of stirring a wider range of moods and emotions than any
    other musical instrument ever conceived.

    The Hammond organ and (later) the Fender Rhodes took this awesome
    machine-enabled power of expression into theatres and clubs then into
    the home environment via studio recordings.

    Even the latest Yamaha electric pianos cannot match the sound of a
    Steinway, but very few people could hear the difference in a theatre or
    in their own living rooms. Accurately recording a Steinway is
    impossible because it's sound combines with its environment and varies
    with listening angle and distance. Yamaha electric pianos have a wide
    variety of sound options and can be tailored to the musical style being
    portrayed - very enjoyable machines indeed. Yamaha's top-of-the-range
    organs have been thrilling audiences for decades as have the
    instruments from Akai, Roland et el. Even Technics have instruments
    that are far more than tolerable for home and club entertainment.

    All digital audio recording made in pro. studios are
    computer-generated: equalisation, echo, reverberation,
    stereo-positioning (the overall sound-stage), levelling,
    compression/limiting, etc. etc. are computer algorithms having only
    their parameters adjusted by the operator. A concept developed from the
    Moog synthesizer.

    As to the sterility of computer-generated music (specifically, I mean
    precision-timed plus composed by rule), I suggest you read up on the
    findings of Lionel Richie and Steely Dan. I am privileged to have
    watched documentaries featuring these artists who had extraordinary
    insights into what makes music really enjoyable and/or sellable. Donald
    Fagen (formally a member of Steely Dan) has only two albums that I know
    of: his first "The Nightfly" (1982) has every note perfect and timed to
    within a millisecond or two, which is so awesomely uncanny it is almost
    addictive; his second "Kamakiriad" (1993) makes use of a real backing
    orchestra with realistic human mistiming, which is awesome because the
    album theme is futuristic and it works only because the musicianship is
    realistic rather than computer-generated.

    Pete A, Oct 11, 2011
  7. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    That depends on your definition of machine.
    Piano, pipe-organ, calliope all seem to be machines to me. They
    mechanically produce sound when acted upon by hands.
    Savageduck, Oct 11, 2011
  8. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    On 2011-10-11 10:52:03 -0700, Pete A <> said:

    Steely Dan still lives, and is currently on tour. I saw them in concert
    in 2009 and they are as good with the current line up as they ever were.
    < http://www.steelydan.com/ >

    Fagin and Becker, the core of Steely Dan have both produced solo
    efforts. Fagin produced a third album in 2006 "Morph the Cat" and is
    slated to have a fourth, "Soulful Instinct" released this year.
    Savageduck, Oct 11, 2011
  9. Savageduck

    Pete A Guest

    Many thanks - I shall look out for these albums and buy the CDs (not
    the MP3s) when I find them.
    Pete A, Oct 11, 2011
  10. Savageduck

    Eric Stevens Guest

    I know two people, one an internationally known pianist and the other
    a locally well known organist. To my ear, their performances have the
    same defect in common: they play with metronomically accurate
    precision. If you listen to the great performers on these instruments
    you will become aware that that there are subtle variations in their
    timing, often from note to note, and they use this to round off the
    expression in their music.

    I once sat in on an organ master class run by Peter Hurford
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hurford and heard him say
    "controlling the gaps between the notes" is important as maintaining
    the correct tempi.


    Eric Stevens
    Eric Stevens, Oct 11, 2011
  11. Savageduck

    Pete A Guest

    Yes, metronomic plus pitch accuracy must be the aspiration while one is
    learning because it is a level of perfection that is almost impossible
    to achieve and it is the criteria by which one achieves academic
    qualifications. But, unless one has achieved this perfection one cannot
    then go on to improvise in a convincing and entertaining manner, which
    is what transforms written music into a soul-wrenching performance. I
    and many others call it "improvisation" and I maintain that this is a
    major problem with listening to recorded music: the reproduction is
    identical each time whereas live performances are subtly different each

    I remember visiting a pub one a Friday night. Every Friday the pub
    featured a live band to attract more customers. This particular night
    there was a jazz trio emulating George Benson. I knew it wasn't the
    real George, but having most of his albums I was so intrigued by the
    accuracy of the copy I _had_ to walk into the room to satisfy myself
    that George wasn't present. George perfected timing and rules which can
    be learnt and successfully copied.

    No band could make a convincing copy of Grover Washington Jr. (his
    bastardisation of "correct" sax playing is inimitable because he
    studied music for such a long time) let alone could any band emulate a
    live performance from Gill Scott-Heron! Sadly, I missed Gill's live
    performance when he visited my nearby town :(

    Don't get me wrong: I have no albums by Kraftwerk yet I appreciate the
    profound effect they had on modern music and art. Likewise, I would not
    expect anyone to revel in the delights of "Ocean Beach" by the Black
    Mighty Orchestra nor anything by Riovolt nor the exquisite computerised
    mixings by DJ Aron Ross, DJ Cam and Ian Pooley. I am very fortunate in
    that I love listening to these creations without requiring drugs to
    fully enjoy them. OK, so hand-rolled tobacco and a can of lager do add
    to the pleasure.

    The combining of African and Latin American music is the foundation of
    all "pop" music - Rock and Roll, Blues, RnB; culminating (via the use
    of computerised technology and the MIDI interface) into Jazz
    Electronica, House, Soulful House, UK Garage, ad infinitum.

    Visual art forms are light-years behind music, in my opinion, so bring
    on the equivalent of a MIDI interface to art generation...
    Pete A, Oct 11, 2011
  12. Savageduck

    Bruce Guest

    At a more prosaic level, there are significant variations in timing in
    many Beatles songs. This was mostly because the near-metronomic
    rhythm that most drummers were capable of was something that often
    eluded Ringo Starr. At times, there was almost a pause in the music.

    It worked because when you listen to the songs, the other band members
    would instantly adapt to Ringo's changes of tempo. Not only were they
    not immediately noticeable, they actually worked reasonably well. I
    am not trying to suggest that they enhanced the band's performance,
    merely that they did not significantly detract from it.

    A journalist once asked John Lennon whether Ringo Starr was the best
    drummer in the world. He replied "He's not even the best drummer in
    the Beatles!"
    Bruce, Oct 11, 2011
  13. Savageduck

    PeterN Guest

    Your creativity is showing. What is wrong with a machine that
    transcripts music to musical notation and scans a musical notation to
    create music?
    Indeed has I continued for my masters, my thesis would have been based
    around that very subject.

    BTW have you answered my prior questions?
    PeterN, Oct 12, 2011
  14. Savageduck

    PeterN Guest

    Mechanical perfection <> fine music. There are subtle imperfections and
    slight variations in volume, pitch and tempo that can make for a great
    PeterN, Oct 12, 2011
  15. Savageduck

    PeterN Guest

    On 10/11/2011 6:32 PM, Pete A wrote:
    If we apply that to photography, we find the difference between a
    postcard and art.
    There are those who claim that the music enhances the enjoyment of drugs.
    PeterN, Oct 12, 2011
  16. Savageduck

    Savageduck Guest

    ....and then there is Stockhausen.
    Savageduck, Oct 12, 2011
  17. Savageduck

    Pete A Guest

    A few years ago BBC Radio 1 broadcast evening programmes in the hope of
    educating drug users on this very topic. I learnt things I didn't want
    to know about why young people strive to work hard during the week - to
    save enough to enjoy music and drugs on Friday and Saturday nights. The
    broadcasts were educational, non-judgemental, and filled with good
    advice for those who wished to persist with this pastime. Unfortunately
    the broadcasts were stopped because the BBC soon realised that those
    who needed to listen switched to another radio channel. The last thing
    a drug user wants is to be educated in public.

    My "ecstasy pill" is music. It's legal and a lot cheaper, but I can
    understand that it therefore categorises it for many as "not
    Pete A, Oct 12, 2011
  18. Savageduck

    PeterN Guest

    Mine is Photoshop. Last night I said I was going to sleep about 9. At
    11:30 I was so engrossed that I had no concept of what was happening
    around me. And yes the radio was on and I was zoned. ;-)
    PeterN, Oct 12, 2011
  19. Savageduck

    PeterN Guest

    I cannot think of a man made musical instrument winch is not a machine.
    PeterN, Oct 12, 2011
  20. Savageduck

    notbob Guest

    Yer lips?
    notbob, Oct 12, 2011
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