Adams on 35mm

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Michael Scarpitti, Dec 22, 2003.

  1. Yes: at the risk of repeating myself (I think I already posted this a couple
    of times), my 5x7 Elwood cost me a grand total of $9 on eBay--complete with
    lens (not-too-shabby 161mm Kodak Projection Anastigmat).
     
    David Nebenzahl, Dec 24, 2003
    #41
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  2. Michael Scarpitti

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message
    : > The 'force feeding' is from the zoneheads. They believe there is one
    : > system for all purposes. They shove it down everyone's throat.

    : Replace zoneheads with Michael Scarpitti and that describes you to a T

    He does in fact want to force everybody to stop using the zone system and
    switch to the scarpitti method. It's interesting though that he won't tell
    us what the scarpitti method is.

    As best as I can figure it out under the scarpitti method all LF and MF
    photography will cease and everyone will get rid of their non-leica cameras
    and get leicas. No one would use any film develped within the last thirty
    years and we would all curse Kodak for not developing new films. There would
    be no more landscapes and the only type of photography that will be allowed is
    that of people pouring sirupe on waffles and photographing tennis players trying
    to get shots of the ball hitting the racket. In all cases the exposure will be
    guessed at, the composition poor, the development poor and the printing will suck.

    When this comes to pass the only person left taking pictures will be scarpitti.
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 24, 2003
    #42
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  3. This is hilarious, Alexis. There is no more dogmatic, doctrinaire
    group in photography than the zoneheads. I have met and talked with
    them, which I might add is in itself somewhat difficult. They are so
    busy spouting dogma that they cannot hear anything else, and can
    hardly carry a conversation.

    I don't tell people that they must use 35mm, but if they do I have
    some advice. I suggest they experiment, giving some guidance on that.
    I show them my pictures and explain how it's done. I show the results
    of my experiments. They are eager and curious how I can get such good
    quality from 35mm. Then I tell them how I do it and what materials I
    prefer. I have done this for many years and they have always been
    grateful.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 24, 2003
    #43


  4. You see how thw zoneheads manage to turn the topic 'Adams on 35mm' to
    view cameras? Stick to 'Adams on 35mm', please!
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 24, 2003
    #44
  5. The point is this: who controls education about 35mm technique? It has
    You still have a few problems understanding the big picture (no pun
    intended...).

    1. For you the key element of ZS seems to be variable development. For me,
    and possibly for many others, ZS is one (and a good) way to make a
    connection between subject luminances and print values in predictable way.
    This can be useful even without variable film development: with roll films.
    The same outcome (a good print) can be also achieved without using ZS at
    all. It's only one technique among others, not the best , not the worst.
    Also the principles can be applied without following Adams's method from
    word to word. (And you should read the latest edition of "The Negative". It
    is not the same as the first editions. He rewrote many things. ZS presented
    in the first books is not the same.)

    2. There is no "best technique" no matter how hard you try to describe it.
    There are many different technical qualities in photographs and in making
    them - not to forget the content, it's quite important too ;-). The size and
    the shape of grain (not necessarily small) is one, resolution/acutance is
    another, then there are shadow and highlight detail, tonal rendition,
    workflow, cost, speed, personal preference is also one - the list goes on.
    You can't address one without altering another. People have different
    preferences and working methods - they all can lead to a "perfect"
    photograph. You will just make your life very miserable trying to "own" the
    definition of all that.

    3. I don't even believe that there are _that_ many people using ZS with roll
    films. But it doesn't matter. It can be done. Some people do it all the
    time, some people only want to try it and some never will. They all will
    most likely produce excellent or horrible pictures no matter what technique.
    I suggest everybody to try many different approaches.

    4. Merry Christmas to all!

    5. Remember also to take some pictures once in a while :)

    6. Severi Salminen
     
    Severi Salminen, Dec 24, 2003
    #45
  6. Yes, and this is stated as such in Minor White's book, as well as in
    Adams's book. I am not making it up. It the foundation-stone of the
    zoan sistum.
    Then why all the indoctrination aimed at making 'converts'?
    This is the greatest failing I see in zonehead work. Content seems to
    be an afterthought to making a print that has IX and III values.

    Pax Romana
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 24, 2003
    #46
  7. I'd like nothing more than for the zoan sistum to be exposed for the
    fraud it is. A dogma-enamoured, tone-worshipping cult.
    Yes, just like HCB.



    At least tennis players move. Rocks and trees don't. You don't have to
    capture the decisive moment. Any will do.

    Go ahead, FP, make my day.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 24, 2003
    #47
  8. 1. For you the key element of ZS seems to be variable development.
    Well, if you read "The Negative" (the latest edition), you'll see that the
    essential point is what I wrote below, not variable development. And that is
    what Adams pointed out when he talked about ZS and 35mm (or roll film)
    photography. Variable development is one (important, true) aspect, but it is
    not the essential point of Zone System. It amazes me that you still haven't
    read "The Negative" (the latest edition) and you still rant about ZS.
    Please, read it before continuing to fulfill your "meaning of life" ;-)
    Nothing to do with the Zone System itself. It's not my or Zone System's
    fault when people like you try to force feed their so called "knowledge", to
    make people _not_ to experiment and try but to adopt a single approach and
    technique. I don't defend ZS as being The Ultimate Solution for Making Best
    Photographs, but I defend the fact that there is no such solution. ZS is one
    useful method, you use another and someone uses some other. This newsgroups
    potential is to discuss (in sophisticated manner ;) about various
    techniques. It is up to the photographer what (s)he's chooses to use in
    certain situation. This is not about religion - at least not for me...
    Again, nothing to do with Zone System. ZS only covers only the technical
    aspects of exposure, development and printing - nothing to do with content.
    There are millions of photographers, some who use ZS and some who don't, and
    they all care shit about content. ZS is not to blame when photographers only
    care about what zones their photographs cover. It is not DSLR's fault when
    all people do is measure the noise levels and sensor resolution. Is this
    really that hard for you to comprehend?

    Severi Salminen
     
    Severi Salminen, Dec 24, 2003
    #48
  9. What, do you think you *own* this thread, Waffle Boy?

    **** off. No presents for you.
     
    David Nebenzahl, Dec 24, 2003
    #49
  10. Alexis, the joke is ultimately on you. I have yet to see any of your
    work displayed anywhere, that you have taken.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 24, 2003
    #50
  11. Michael Scarpitti

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : > : (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message
    : > : > The 'force feeding' is from the zoneheads. They believe there is one
    : > : > system for all purposes. They shove it down everyone's throat.
    : >
    : > : Replace zoneheads with Michael Scarpitti and that describes you to a T
    : >
    : > He does in fact want to force everybody to stop using the zone system and
    : > switch to the scarpitti method. It's interesting though that he won't tell
    : > us what the scarpitti method is.

    : I'd like nothing more than for the zoan sistum to be exposed for the
    : fraud it is. A dogma-enamoured, tone-worshipping cult.

    This coming from someone that admits he doesn't know what the zone system even is.

    : > As best as I can figure it out under the scarpitti method all LF and MF
    : > photography will cease and everyone will get rid of their non-leica cameras
    : > and get leicas. No one would use any film develped within the last thirty
    : > years and we would all curse Kodak for not developing new films. There would
    : > be no more landscapes and the only type of photography that will be allowed is
    : > that of people pouring sirupe on waffles and photographing tennis players >trying to get shots of the ball hitting the racket. In all cases the exposure >will be guessed at, the composition poor, the development poor and the printing >will suck.
    : >

    : Yes, just like HCB.


    : > When this comes to pass the only person left taking pictures will be scarpitti.



    : At least tennis players move. Rocks and trees don't. You don't have to
    : capture the decisive moment. Any will do.

    Talking stupid again as usual.

    : Go ahead, FP, make my day.

    ??
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 24, 2003
    #51
  12. Justin F. Knotzke, Dec 24, 2003
    #52
  13. David Nebenzahl, Dec 24, 2003
    #53
  14. You just HAVE to drag view cameras into a discussion that is
    SPECIFICALLY intended to be about ADAMS ON 35MM, DON'T YOU? You
    "people" (using the term loosely) are absolutley the most pathetic,
    obsessesd, intellectually crippled people on the planet. Do you think
    that by ignoring what Adams said about 35mm it will go away?

    In no field of endeavour is there anything remotely as absurd as the
    zonehead phenomenon. You are a blight on our culture, a cancer on our
    artistic souls. This means war, brother!
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 24, 2003
    #54
  15. It is the essential 'tool' of the zoan sistum. I quote from White:

    "While variable film development is today a specialist practise, the
    adjustment of development time to compensate for a wide variety of
    subject contrast ranges is still the most effective way to control
    rendering. Through variable film development the intentions of the
    photographer can be crystallized in the negative."
    What good will it do me?
    Every time someone new to the field wants to get a higher level, they
    either ask questions in a newsgroup and are immediately swamped by
    zonehead advice, or they take classes at some kind of institution.
    What are the classes?

    1. Basic B&W
    2. Abvanced B&W: The Zone System

    I see it all the time. It has become academized, institutionalized. If
    that's not 'forcing it down people's throats', I don't know what would
    be.
    It is for them. Otherwise, why all the protest? Only 'true believers'
    rant and rave when their beliefs are questioned. It IS a religion for
    them.
    Of course it does. In the workshops, what are these people taught?
    What examples are held up for emulation? Look at Sexton's 'work'. If
    that's what they are taught to value, that's what they value. They
    don't know any better. Their artistic sensibilities are stunted and
    perverted.
    It's the work I see held up as ideals. John Sexton, George Tice, etc.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 24, 2003
    #55
  16. Michael Scarpitti

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : > On 12/24/2003 6:19 AM Michael Scarpitti spake thus:
    : >
    : > >> On 12/24/2003 12:26 AM John spake thus:
    : > >>
    : > >> >
    : > >> >> Thanks. It's not the camera holding me back. It's the Enlarger. I
    : > >> >>spent most of my mad money on a used Theremaphot ACP-302 and the seller
    : > >> >>threw in a CAP-40. No money for a Durst 1200 this year... I think 4X5 will
    : > >> >>be about all I need. The limitation is the size of the darkroom, and I
    : > >> >>haven't found "Darkroom Expansions" for sale on E-Bay -- Yet.... Although
    : > >> >>8X10 contact prints are pretty pretty...
    : > >> >
    : > >> > Don't need the Durst right off of course. How about an Elwood
    : > >> > ? $100 or less on Ebay.
    : > >>
    : > >> Yes: at the risk of repeating myself (I think I already posted this a couple
    : > >> of times), my 5x7 Elwood cost me a grand total of $9 on eBay--complete with
    : > >> lens (not-too-shabby 161mm Kodak Projection Anastigmat).
    : > >
    : > > You see how thw zoneheads manage to turn the topic 'Adams on 35mm' to
    : > > view cameras? Stick to 'Adams on 35mm', please!
    : >
    : > What, do you think you *own* this thread, Waffle Boy?
    : >
    : > **** off. No presents for you.

    : You just HAVE to drag view cameras into a discussion that is
    : SPECIFICALLY intended to be about ADAMS ON 35MM, DON'T YOU? You
    : "people" (using the term loosely) are absolutley the most pathetic,
    : obsessesd, intellectually crippled people on the planet. Do you think
    : that by ignoring what Adams said about 35mm it will go away?

    What part of Adams stating that the use of the zone system with roll film
    being "valid" do you want to ignore?

    : In no field of endeavour is there anything remotely as absurd as the
    : zonehead phenomenon. You are a blight on our culture, a cancer on our
    : artistic souls. This means war, brother!

    More stupid talk.
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 24, 2003
    #56
  17. Guess what: it is! Maybe you didn't pay attemntion that day. It has
    been recommended practice for decades:

    "Haist, v. 1, p. 396,

    JI Crabtree [ref] has said that it is better to develop a negative to
    a low
    gamma and make the print on contrasty paper than to produce a
    higher-contrast negative and make the print on softer paper.

    The Maintenance of Negative Quality, Am. Phot. 31:800, 874 (1937)"
    Your insolenece and arrogance are beyond the pale. I have helped
    HUNDREDS of people in my lifetime to get the best out of their
    darkrooms and photography.
    FAR more than you have.

    Care to back up your claims, bubba?

    "Haist, v. 1, p. 396,

    JI Crabtree [ref] has said that it is better to develop a negative to
    a low
    gamma and make the print on contrasty paper than to produce a
    higher-contrast negative and make the print on softer paper.

    The Maintenance of Negative Quality, Am. Phot. 31:800, 874 (1937)"
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 24, 2003
    #57
  18. Why do you always quote from Minor White? He was an excellent
    photographer, practiced the zone system, but was by no means a zone
    system authority?

    Furthermore, contrast control by varying development is only one of the
    tools the zone system offers, and, IMAO, not the most important.
    Contrast control by varying the development was very important in the
    old days, when films shouldered off around Zone IX, so it was very
    important not to get important detail up there, since it would be
    blocked (not recoverable by burning).
     
    Jean-David Beyer, Dec 24, 2003
    #58
  19. Michael Scarpitti

    Frank Pittel Guest

    He got kicked off because he is the worlds greatest photographer and is so much
    better then everybody else that they conspired against him and kicked him off.
    The inferior photographers there just douldn't deal with his superior greatness.

    I'm sure that's the fantasy that he tells himself is the reason. The truth is that
    he got kick off because he's an obnoxious troll. Go to google and search for him
    in the newsgroup archives. He can't get along with anyone on any of the newsgroups.


    : <quote who= Frank Pittel email=/>:

    : > When this comes to pass the only person left taking pictures will be scarpitti.

    : Is this Scarpitti this same guy:

    : http://www.photo.net/shared/community-member.tcl?user_id=117712

    : Why was he banned from photo.net ?

    : J


    : --
    : Justin F. Knotzke
    :
    : http://www.shampoo.ca PGP: http://www.shampoo.ca/pubkey.txt
    : Gigantic, a big big love - Kim Deal

    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 25, 2003
    #59
  20. Most of the complaints or misunderstanding about the Zone system have been
    pretty silly. The Zone System was what used to previsualize a photograph
    nothing less, nothing more. The principles he described in The Negative &
    The Print amount to an easy to use method to know what you get before you
    make the exposure. With 35mm film you calibrate your system to produce a
    standard negative and use different grades or variable contrast paper to
    adjust the final print. Adams in his later used a Hasselblad with
    interchange backs to adjust his processing time to control contrast. He also
    used 35mm for family and personal shots which printed on Bessler 23c with
    condenser light. If you don't believe this is effective approach shoot some
    Tri X and send it to Kodak processing. If you calibrate your system to
    camera, lens, film, paper, enlarger and lens it becomes a very simple matter
    to get a good basic print without even making a strip. The standard negative
    is the starting point to creating a finished photograph. A well exposed
    negative is much easier to print (or scan for that matter) than poorly an
    exposed one. The art of photography is about control of the final image, it
    is the photographer that makes the photograph not the camera. In the end the
    most important thing is the composition of the photography. To quote Edward
    Weston "composition is the most powerful way of seeing". The Zone System is
    just part of the process.

    Sheldon Strauss
     
    Sheldon Strauss, Dec 25, 2003
    #60
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