Adams on 35mm

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Michael Scarpitti, Dec 22, 2003.

  1. Michael Scarpitti

    John Guest

    And all i would take to lever this group out of the morass
    it's been stuck in for some time is a concerted effort to filter or
    completely ignore those posting flamebait.

    Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com
    Please remove the "_" when replying via email
     
    John, Dec 25, 2003
    #61
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  2. It is the essential 'tool' of the zoan sistum. I quote from White:
    Well, I don't give a damn what Mr. White says. Read "The Negative" by
    the man who invented the Zone System - you know who. Come back after
    doing your homework :) And, stick to the topic, you just changed it to
    "White on 35mm". Pot, kettle...
    You want to talk what Adams said about ZS, 35mm and variable development
    and you quote White. What good might _anything_ do to you? You are
    blaming ZS for things that are not ZS's or Adam's fault. Read the damn
    book before trying to talk about it. You can finish it in one night so
    it should not be a problem?
    And what are _you_ doing that differs from above?
    Do you want to talk about Zone System or people teaching it? ZS, again,
    only cover technical aspects. It is not ZS's fault if people teaching it
    can't teach other aspects of photography. I have never taken a single
    class in photography so I don't know what is the teaching like. You are
    correct that if people are taught to only think about the levels of gray
    in their photographs, something is missing. But I can't understand why
    the anger towards ZS for that??

    When you read a book you don't like, do you blame the printer that
    printed it?? When you see a painting that you don't like, do you blame
    the technique the painter used?? "He used oil colors: what an empty and
    contentless painting". Come on.

    Severi Salminen
     
    Severi Salminen, Dec 25, 2003
    #62
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  3. Michael Scarpitti

    Alexis Neel Guest

    Yes same guy. The reason...they have standards for decorum and
    civility, which he knows nothing about.

    Its funny though, cause I wondered what happened to him there...LOL!!!
     
    Alexis Neel, Dec 25, 2003
    #63
  4. Michael Scarpitti

    Alexis Neel Guest

    (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message >
    Then go bother, and get banned by, another group.
     
    Alexis Neel, Dec 25, 2003
    #64
  5. Michael Scarpitti

    Frank Pittel Guest

    You're making the mistake of trying to talk sense to scarpitti. He's a troll
    that has no interest in a discussion or the truth.


    : Most of the complaints or misunderstanding about the Zone system have been
    : pretty silly. The Zone System was what used to previsualize a photograph
    : nothing less, nothing more. The principles he described in The Negative &
    : The Print amount to an easy to use method to know what you get before you
    : make the exposure. With 35mm film you calibrate your system to produce a
    : standard negative and use different grades or variable contrast paper to
    : adjust the final print. Adams in his later used a Hasselblad with
    : interchange backs to adjust his processing time to control contrast. He also
    : used 35mm for family and personal shots which printed on Bessler 23c with
    : condenser light. If you don't believe this is effective approach shoot some
    : Tri X and send it to Kodak processing. If you calibrate your system to
    : camera, lens, film, paper, enlarger and lens it becomes a very simple matter
    : to get a good basic print without even making a strip. The standard negative
    : is the starting point to creating a finished photograph. A well exposed
    : negative is much easier to print (or scan for that matter) than poorly an
    : exposed one. The art of photography is about control of the final image, it
    : is the photographer that makes the photograph not the camera. In the end the
    : most important thing is the composition of the photography. To quote Edward
    : Weston "composition is the most powerful way of seeing". The Zone System is
    : just part of the process.

    : Sheldon Strauss



    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 25, 2003
    #65
  6. Michael Scarpitti

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : > It is the essential 'tool' of the zoan sistum. I quote from White:
    : >
    : > "While variable film development is today a specialist practise, the
    : > adjustment of development time to compensate for a wide variety of
    : > subject contrast ranges is still the most effective way to control
    : > rendering. Through variable film development the intentions of the
    : > photographer can be crystallized in the negative."

    : Well, I don't give a damn what Mr. White says. Read "The Negative" by
    : the man who invented the Zone System - you know who. Come back after
    : doing your homework :) And, stick to the topic, you just changed it to
    : "White on 35mm". Pot, kettle...

    : >>It amazes me that you still haven't
    : >>read "The Negative" (the latest edition) and you still rant about ZS.
    : >>Please, read it before continuing to fulfill your "meaning of life" ;-)
    : >
    : >
    : > What good will it do me?

    : You want to talk what Adams said about ZS, 35mm and variable development
    : and you quote White. What good might _anything_ do to you? You are
    : blaming ZS for things that are not ZS's or Adam's fault. Read the damn
    : book before trying to talk about it. You can finish it in one night so
    : it should not be a problem?

    He wants to go trolling. Otherwise why would he be lying about what Adams wrote??

    : >>ZS is one
    : >>useful method, you use another and someone uses some other. This newsgroups
    : >>potential is to discuss (in sophisticated manner ;) about various
    : >>techniques. It is up to the photographer what (s)he's chooses to use in
    : >>certain situation. This is not about religion - at least not for me...
    : >
    : >
    : > It is for them. Otherwise, why all the protest? Only 'true believers'
    : > rant and rave when their beliefs are questioned. It IS a religion for
    : > them.

    : And what are _you_ doing that differs from above?

    He's a troll.

    : >>Again, nothing to do with Zone System.
    : >>ZS only covers only the technical
    : >>aspects of exposure, development and printing - nothing to do with content.
    : >
    : >
    : > Of course it does. In the workshops, what are these people taught?
    : > What examples are held up for emulation? Look at Sexton's 'work'. If
    : > that's what they are taught to value, that's what they value. They
    : > don't know any better. Their artistic sensibilities are stunted and
    : > perverted.

    : Do you want to talk about Zone System or people teaching it? ZS, again,
    : only cover technical aspects. It is not ZS's fault if people teaching it
    : can't teach other aspects of photography. I have never taken a single
    : class in photography so I don't know what is the teaching like. You are
    : correct that if people are taught to only think about the levels of gray
    : in their photographs, something is missing. But I can't understand why
    : the anger towards ZS for that??

    : When you read a book you don't like, do you blame the printer that
    : printed it?? When you see a painting that you don't like, do you blame
    : the technique the painter used?? "He used oil colors: what an empty and
    : contentless painting". Come on.

    You're trying to reason with a troll. He has no interest in the subject and
    he will tell whatever lie he needs to get a reaction.
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 25, 2003
    #66
  7. Exactly, so far I've killfiled 3 people and counting.
    On a happier note I took your advice and have been
    reading up on xhtml!!!

    Have a good holiday season :)
     
    Gregory W Blank, Dec 25, 2003
    #67
  8. Well stated.
     
    Gregory W Blank, Dec 25, 2003
    #68
  9. Michael Scarpitti

    John Guest

    Yep. I just wish everyone that insists on feeding his ego
    would put Scarpitti in the header so that everyone would know to avoid
    the thread.

    Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com
    Please remove the "_" when replying via email
     
    John, Dec 25, 2003
    #69
  10. Michael Scarpitti

    John Guest

    I hope these new languages make significant progress this
    year. I really like CSS2 but unfortunately it's still so young that
    cross-browser support hasn't been developed yet.

    Of course I'm overhauling my site one more time. Got tired of
    hearing people complain about the rather minimal use of frames that I
    posted last year. Unfortunately this means that I'm going to have to
    go back to tables which I've been trying to avoid.

    For all your XHTML needs :

    http://www.dynamicdrive.com

    Regards,

    John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com
    Please remove the "_" when replying via email
     
    John, Dec 25, 2003
    #70
  11. Michael Scarpitti

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:38:53 -0600, Frank Pittel

    : >He's a troll.

    : Yep. I just wish everyone that insists on feeding his ego
    : would put Scarpitti in the header so that everyone would know to avoid
    : the thread.

    I know the feeling. I had him in my kill file for a while and his crap kept
    coming through because of all the people responding to his trolls.

    I've also noticed that when ignored he becomes more and more obnoxious. There's
    no point in trying to discuss facts with him since he's just trolling and doesn't
    care about facts.
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 25, 2003
    #71
  12. He wrote 'The Zone System Manual' under the auspices of Ansel Adams.
    It has been used as a textbook for decades.

    Page 7 of the ZSM:

    "To many individuals I extend a profusion of gratitude. My students
    have taught me all I know about the subject. Ansel Adams has been more
    than generous in helping me to prepare this guide to planned
    photography, the fullness of which may be found in his Basic Photo
    Series. I have untold gratitude to Willard D. Morgan who has kept the
    Zone System in print since 1946. I have many thanks for John L.
    Davenport who first stated the concept of subject contrast control by
    variable film development in two articles in U.S. Camera, 1934.
    Minor White"
    Why should your statement override what is clearly stated White's
    book? It is the most important tool according to that book.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 26, 2003
    #72
  13. Absolutely correct. But you use a harder grade of paper and a softer
    negative as 'standard'. The zs has no criterion for graininess and
    sharpness. It is unconcerned with that. It is therefore inadeqaute for
    35mm, as 35mm technique must take graininess into account.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 26, 2003
    #73
  14. I read the book ages ago. I got a copy from the library. This stuff is
    all too familiar. And it's largely wrong.
    Do you remember when photography was interesting? I do. It's all trash
    now, and they are to blame.
    I took one class in photography, to learn how to use a view camera's
    controls. Otherwise I am entirely self-taught. Have you seen how many
    'workshops' there are? How many are devoted to zs? Most. Why? The cult
    has to breed new initiates.
    My anger is about the 'culture' of the zs as it is taught and applied.
    My anger is about the kind of work zs practitioners turn out. My anger
    is about countless time exposures of water running over rocks. My
    anger is about the poor white-trash trailer-park aesthetic sense that
    most zs practitioners exhibit. That's what I'm angry about.
    The aesthetic is part of the zs culture.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 26, 2003
    #74
  15. Actually, I'm not sure. There was a dispute about rating pictures. I
    rated some pictures very low, and some of those people retaliated.
    Those people were also banned.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 26, 2003
    #75

  16. Why do you devote so much attention then to what I say?
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 26, 2003
    #76
  17.  
    Jean-David Beyer, Dec 26, 2003
    #77
  18. And 'previsualization' is a major problem in itself. Why is this
    necessarily better than simply reacting to an interesting scene, and
    allowing yourself to photograph by 'instinct'?

    Di you read what Richard pointed out about what the eye 'expects' to
    see in respect of tonality? If you mess with the mid-tones too much
    the image looks 'unnatural'. The expansion and contraction of the
    negative, and consequently of mid-tones, is an essential part of the
    zs. That is why I reject it, and employ compression using compensating
    developers. These compress the extremes of the density range but leave
    the mid-tones largely unaffected. This also fits the negatives within
    a fairly narrow range of paper contrasts. there is less
    negative-to-negative variation.

    In short, variable film development in the way described by Adams and
    White is inadequate.
    But, and this is the point, that's NOT the best way to do it!
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Dec 26, 2003
    #78
  19. Michael Scarpitti

    David Starr Guest

    I do. While I'm looking at something I'm going to photograph my
    instincts tell me what part of the subject I want to be 18% gray in
    the print. Then I spot meter that part of the subject and adjust the
    exposure accordingly. I always try to look at a subject and visualize
    how it will look as a print. I DON'T guess at exposures and blast
    away, hoping to get "something".


    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Professional Shop Rat: 14,205 days in a GM plant.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     
    David Starr, Dec 26, 2003
    #79
  20. Michael Scarpitti

    JRF Guest

    OK, Scarp - here are the words you need to forward to your team of
    pschiatrists (trust me, THEY will understand):
    Previsualization is a method, just one method, something a person can choose
    as a personal preference. It has its limits and its strengths. And it
    works. And you can't abide that.

    Have a nice Christmas. We all know you now have 2 Christmases on that roll
    in the Leica, so give yourself a treat and have it developed.
     
    JRF, Dec 26, 2003
    #80
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