AG-DVX100 (24P) or JVC GR-HD1 (HD).

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by Jay, Jan 24, 2004.

  1. Jay

    Jay Guest

    I am looking for a new camcorder for my own personal use. Should I buy a 24P
    camercorder like the Panasonic DVX100 or a HD Camera like the JVC HD1. I
    mean what I am trying to understand is is HD better then 24P when you view

    Jay, Jan 24, 2004
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  2. Jay

    david.mccall Guest

    Funny question. I understand what you are looking for, but it is also a
    question about apples and oranges.

    Do you have a HDTV at home?
    Have you gotten to the point where watching standard def is annoying?

    If you answered both of those questions "Yes" then HD may be your
    better choice. The JVC comes with proprietary editing program for
    editing the HD footage, but I was at a demo where a "One Beyond" was
    showing their laptop that could cut JVCs HD format in Premiere Pro in
    real-time. This is not your ordinary laptop. It has dual 3.2gig P4 and an
    800 mhz front side bus and cost $5000). So there is a codec out there.
    The salesman said that other companies are buying-in to JVCs format,
    so it may indeed have legs. People claim that the output of this camera
    is quite spectacular, even with the heavy compression. Some complain
    that it is only a single chip. As far as I know, most (all?) digital still
    cameras are single chip, and I suspect that will be the way of the future.
    I think most of the people that were dissing the single chip and heavy
    compression of this camera, had not actually seen the output from
    the camera. I haven't seen it either :-(

    As a camera the JVC is very much a consumer oriented camera, but
    you are a consumer. The Panasonic is more aimed at the people that
    want to be real movie-makers, but can only afford DV. It has more
    manual controls, and other professional features, than most of the other
    prosumer level cameras. It's major claim to fame is the 24p.

    Motion pictures are shot at this rate, so shooting with this camera makes
    the transfer to film easier. It also gives you practice working at virtually
    ~1/3 the frame rate of shooting standard video. That means that any
    fast lateral action, or fast camera moves will appear very jittery as
    compared to standard 60i video. If you are planning on making real films,
    then the practice you will receive by using this camera at 24p will help you
    learn to deal with that. 24p or 30p have an advantage if you are expecting
    to mostly view this footage on a computer (interlace is rarely, if ever,
    properly supported on computer displays). This camera uses a new format
    for 24p that keeps the frames together by doubling up frames to make up
    the difference between 24p and the actual recording format, which is
    always 60i in NTSC. Normally 3-2 pull-down is used to get from 24 to
    30 frames per second. It works by duplicating fields rather than frames and
    results in a little smoother rendering of motion when viewed as video than
    does Panasonic's 24p advanced format. But 3-2 pull-down is more awkward
    for editing than the 24pa format. If you convert the video to true 24p for
    editing, then it should not make a difference.

    If you don't need 24p, balanced mic inputs, and professional controls, then
    this might not be your best choice for you. If you don't have a way to view
    HDTV, then the JVC would be a waste too.

    What I have written here is mostly based on hear-say and reading , since I
    have not actually used either. I played for a moment with the Panasonic
    offering, and personally liked the look of the Sony cameras better.

    david.mccall, Jan 24, 2004
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  3. Jay

    dylan_j Guest

    If you have a standard TV, then you will find the colour rendition of
    the Panasonic better, as it has 3 CCDs (one for each primary colour).
    The JVC has only one chip to do all colours, and so won't be quite as
    good, and you won't get any advantage with the increased resolution of
    HD on a standard TV (well, maybo a little).

    If you have a Hi Definition TV set, then you might notice the
    Panasonic's standard resolution looks soft. Footage from the JVC
    would look better. The loss of sharpness from the panasonic would be
    more annoying (IMO) that the slight lack of colour fidelity from the

    Since the JVC can do 30p (as can the Panasonic) which would look very
    similar to 24p, that issue is irrelevant in choosing your camera.
    Anyway I can't help feeling that 24p is snake oil being sold to
    consumers, though it is useful to indie filmmakers. In terms of image
    quality, it's not better, it's just different.

    dylan_j, Jan 25, 2004
  4. Jay

    Anon O'Moose Guest

    Stay away from the JVC HD cameras. Why? Ask yourself these questions...

    1). What format does the camera record in? - MPEG-2

    2). What can you do with an MPEG-2 file? - Create a DVD.

    3). Can you do anything else with an MPEG-2 file? - NO !

    4). Can you play these tapes on any other decks? - NO ! (only JVCs
    proprietary VHS HD deck)

    5). Is there anything I should know about the editing software? - YES, it
    has the basic editing stuff but again, you are editing MPEG streams.

    6). What does that mean? - It means you may want to make an edit at a
    very specific spot in your footage, but the nature of an MPEG stream means
    you can only do an edit on an "I" frame. These "I" frames are many times
    not exactly where you want them to be.

    And so on. These 2 cameras are a mixture of SD (Sandard Def) and a sort
    of bastard format that so far has only 2 pieces of equipment in the world
    that will work with the tapes.

    Yes, you can output RBG (simplified use of the term) to another deck, like
    a beta but then you have lost the HD format you bought the camera for in
    the first place.

    Stick with the new AG-DVX100A. The price went up but it's very usable.

    Friendly advice. Pass it on.
    Anon O'Moose, Jan 28, 2004
  5. Jay

    Barry Guest

    The JVC camera uses the HDV format which is an MPEG-2 TS stream file. That
    means there is an I-frame every 6 sequences so one can edit the files better
    than you can with an MPEG-2 program file. It looks like HDV will be used by
    most of the consumer and prosumer cameras coming on the market. I have done
    very satisfactory editing with the software that comes with the camera
    however I am waiting for Ulead announced update to MSP to do complete
    editing and effects. You can produce excellent footage with this camera
    once you learn its tricks. It will look more like 16mm film than video.
    Most of us want to play back the files on an HD-DVD player and some will be
    shipping shortly (they'll probably deal with TS and MPG extensions like some
    players do with MP3 -- display a directory listing). You can already do this
    with HTPCs. And yes I do archive footage to the JVC D-VHS deck.

    Also with an inexpensive editor like Womble one can even change the stream
    to a program file.
    Barry, Jan 31, 2004
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