amazing how this industry is shooting itself on the foot...

Discussion in 'Australia Photography' started by Noons, Oct 6, 2005.

  1. Noons

    Noons Guest

    Tamron is *still* an active maker of lenses.
    They *still* make the adaptall-2 lens system.
    Film cameras and lenses are *still* being made and used.
    So is film.


    Try and get an adaptall mount in Sydney from anywhere?

    Place 1: "adapt-huh?".
    Place 2: "sorry, no stock and we aren't going to sell them".
    Place 3: "we don't supply this item anymore, try the 2nd-hand market"

    Hmmmmm... Given that I know for a fact I'm not the only person asking
    or using adaptall lenses/system and that I'm most definitely not the
    only person still using film, one wonders why so much whining
    from the retail industry that "photography is dead" and so much
    other garbage?

    Here is a basic retail rule:
    "you don't have an item or are incapable of providing it, you don't
    sell.
    you don't sell, you're out of business."

    Stop blaming the "digital revolution".
    Start having something to sell.
    Any wonder why so many photo retail places are closing?

    Perhaps a good thing: it might make the remaining ones open
    their eyes and make goods available. Instead of blaming society
    and pandering only to the latest fad.

    Then again, there is always ebay and countries
    with a sensible market structure.
    Instead of toy monopolies...

    <off the soap box>
     
    Noons, Oct 6, 2005
    #1
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  2. Know what you are saying....BUT....having worked in photographic retail in
    the past for 5 years prior to digital there was sweet FA need for adaptal
    then, let alone now. We had those mounts in the store for YEARS and what do
    you do? Stock on for Canon, Olympus, Nikon, K-mount and on and on?

    They *SHOULD* have offered to order you one in ...that is fair enough...but
    there are literally thousands of bits of pieces you could stock but would
    never sell.

    If you were a shop would you find it logical to stock the .........+1, +2,
    +3 -1,-2,-3 dioptre adjustments for a canon F1? Or a Lens hood for a Nikon
    600mm F4?

    Tamron lenses although good were never really that big sellers when I worked
    in the trade. Of the aftermarket lenses, Sigma and Tokina outsold them 20:1.

    I don't think you should be that surprised they don't have them them in
    stock. Like I said though...any decent retailer should order them in for
    you..
     
    Steve Franklin, Oct 6, 2005
    #2
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  3. Noons

    tlai909 Guest

    It's a simple cost vs. profit question.

    They don't want to spend half a day ordering a product that makes them
    $10.

    They'd rather free up their time to sell what they already have.

    T.
     
    tlai909, Oct 6, 2005
    #3
  4. Noons

    Noons Guest


    Of course not. But I'd make DARN SURE that if a potential
    buyer walked in and wanted ANY of those, I'd:

    1- understand what he wanted.
    2- other staff could do the same.
    3- have a source where I could order this stuff from.
    4- sell the order to the buyer.

    Because anything else would be blaming others for my
    own shortcomings and would ensure I lost the client.
    We can bleat about volumes and stocks until the cows
    come home, but one thing is for sure: say to a client "don't
    know" or "you can't have it" and we lost income. Period.

    Photography retail is not a Coles supermarket, it's a
    specialty market, shops CANNOT expect clients to just buy
    what is in stock.

    No one can expect a retail business model to be viable if
    it is based on "either I sell 1 million a day or it isn't
    profitable".

    That's might be wholesale but it certainly ain't retail.

    Or else let's stop the charade, just close all photo retail
    and offshore the whole thing to countries that know how to
    do it.
    Maybe in Australia. But it doesn't matter. They are available,
    the maker is still in business, there is a local agent, it
    should be possible to buy them or their accessories.

    If not then it's the photo retail industry as a whole that
    suffers, not just Tamron. Because I'll be inclined next time
    to bypass the whole bunch and go direct or international.
    For ANY material. Not just Tamron.

    Which is exactly what's been hapenning with photo retail.
    Nothing to do with vague notions of "market is gone" and
    other crap explanations: they can't supply it, they're out
    of business. Very simple.
    Sure. But of the three cases I pointed out two were big
    retailers, the other one was the local agent to whom I
    complained. What can I say?

    That's the whole problem: there is no such thing as "decent"
    photo retailers anymore. Just Coles-wannabes. And the same
    goes for distributors: they all either want instant guaranted
    sales of large quantities or "it's all too hard".

    Look at local Kodak and their products. No more Kodachrome.
    Never mind in other countries it's still possible to use
    it. Here we can't. It's ridiculous beyond belief that
    local Kodak hasn't figured out a way to let people here
    continue to use their product. When obviously they have
    done so in other places. Ever tried to source Edwal nowadays?
    Impossible. Yet, Kodak continues to supply film, I continue
    to use C41 negatives and dust continues to exist. What,
    negatives don't get dirty in Australia anymore? They seem
    to get so in other places where it is still available...

    Time is ripe for an alternative.

    Sorry to vent like this, but I get fed-up that in a place
    like Australia this sort of rubbish goes on and no one
    does anything about it. Might as well be a third-world
    country!
     
    Noons, Oct 6, 2005
    #4
  5. Noons

    Noons Guest

    Well, it's the WRONG cost vs profit question and
    if it takes half a day to make an order then they don't
    have a clue what they are doing.

    They just lost a sale and likely any other follow on
    business. Period.
    And that's a fact that no spreadsheet-armed accountant
    can deny.

    No one can expect to stay in ANY retail business if
    ordering a product to make a sale is such a great problem
    to them.

    No surprises why they're dropping like flies...
     
    Noons, Oct 6, 2005
    #5
  6. Noons

    [BnH] Guest

    Well you then know you live in Australia :D

    The market is too small for retailers to stock everything.
    In the industry I am in, I know the distributor order back to the vendor for
    'unpopular' items =)
     
    [BnH], Oct 6, 2005
    #6
  7. Noons

    k Guest

    | Steve Franklin wrote:

    | Maybe in Australia. But it doesn't matter. They are available,
    | the maker is still in business, there is a local agent, it
    | should be possible to buy them or their accessories.

    I had an instance where I was tendering for 40 high end Nikon lenses - I
    contacted them and stated first what I wanted and before i could get a word
    in the distribution agent was talking over me saying 'no discounts'

    that pissed me off..

    I first had to calm *him* down, then I asked my question - how soon could he
    have the order ready, and did he have them in stock. The answer was 6-12
    weeks and no.

    hmm.. they're using that same old rowboat to get them here from Japan.

    I knew I could get them cheaper than wholesale from a retail outlet in the
    US, Singapore or even hong kong, and I could have had them inside a
    fortnight. I asked him if there was any way to expedite the order, or if he
    could begin ordering them now as the tender had to be filled by whoever won
    it anyway and the answer was no and no.

    nice.

    Prior to this I'd had 3 nikon underwater flashes under a recall notice so I
    sent them as instructed to the Nikon distributor and waited. 4 emails and 2
    contradictory phone calls in a month, still nothing. I phones 4 more times
    in the next month and was told what amounted to wild and willful lies before
    I emailed Nikon Japan and asked them if they could look into it.

    the next day (Saturday) I received a phonecall from the Nikon distributor
    and after apologising for the delay he assured me they would have the
    flashes back in a week

    I did.

    the service and price from wholesalers and distributors here is appalling to
    say the least and being told outright lies ('that product isn't being made
    anymore' is my favourite!) I'm not surprised retailers loath to place
    special orders!



    | That's the whole problem: there is no such thing as "decent"
    | photo retailers anymore. Just Coles-wannabes. And the same
    | goes for distributors: they all either want instant guaranted
    | sales of large quantities or "it's all too hard".

    yup! They push their high profit lines at extortionary prices and whine and
    bleat when retailers take the initiative and try to source offshore. I mean
    come ON! I can buy fuji pro film retail, pay an import agent to bring it in,
    pay all customs costs and still be less than half the local wholesale
    price - what's with that!???


    | Sorry to vent like this, but I get fed-up that in a place
    | like Australia this sort of rubbish goes on and no one
    | does anything about it. Might as well be a third-world
    | country!

    you'd get better service! :)


    k
     
    k, Oct 6, 2005
    #7
  8. Noons

    tlai909 Guest

    Jeez you guys are transparent...

    Nikon = Maxwell?

    T.
     
    tlai909, Oct 6, 2005
    #8
  9. Noons

    Noons Guest

    remember: you said it.

    :)
     
    Noons, Oct 6, 2005
    #9
  10. Noons

    Noons Guest

    Fair enough, but does that have to extend to distributors
    and agents as well?
    I wish! Can't even get them to admit to the
    product still being available, let alone order
    anything...
    I wonder what Tamron would think of this.
    Might find out just for fun...
     
    Noons, Oct 6, 2005
    #10
  11. Noons

    Rob Guest

    Which mount do you want?????????????
     
    Rob, Oct 6, 2005
    #11
  12. chances are if they DID have what you were after, you wouldn't have paid
    what they were asking for it.
     
    Andrew Hennell, Oct 6, 2005
    #12
  13. Noons

    Noons Guest

    Andrew Hennell apparently said,on my timestamp of 6/10/2005 4:12 PM:
    Sure, that's possible. If their business model is to stock
    everything they sell, that would indeed be the case. But if they
    sourced it from an importer/wholesaler as needed, it might be
    a better option than just "nope, we won't sell you this"?

    The latter means they won't make a cent out of me, regardless
    how many el-cheapo digital gizmos they might stock. Whereas the
    other would at least have a chance: I've gladly paid retailers
    more for gear I know I could source cheaper at ebay. It would
    take me time to get the right auction there and I take that into
    account when I go to a retailer: if they can supply within an
    acceptable timeframe, I'll gladly avoid having to sit for
    hours in front of a computer figuring out searches/auctions.

    Rather be out there taking photos, quite frankly...
     
    Noons, Oct 6, 2005
    #13
  14. Noons

    Justin Thyme Guest

    Last time I checked, Maxwells (aust disti for tamron) didn't do the adaptall
    mounts anymore. This effectively makes them no longer available in
    Australia. No retailer is likely to source it from o/s because A) they don't
    import directly so don't have the contacts o/s to do so and B) Tamron are
    likely to tell them to buy from the australian distributor anyway.
    You have to admit though, adaptall has a pretty minor market appeal - it is
    only going to appeal to someone who buys tamron lenses, and changes slr
    system, and doesn't mind that they have lenses that won't do all that their
    camera is capable of. Most people will either stick to a system and buy
    lenses for that one system, or replace their lenses if they change system.
    So it is a low-demand product anyway, which in a small marketplace like
    australia, the demand is going to be almost non-existent.
    Stores only stock what they can reasonably expect to sell, and the same goes
    for distributors. I'm sure with enough arm pulling, Maxwell's could be
    convinced to order in an adaptall mount from Tamron, and then onsell it to a
    retail to sell it to you - but expect a delay of a couple of months, and an
    expensive price when it gets here. Don't be surprised if Maxwell's have to
    order them from Tamron in box quantities - so they might have to order 4 of
    something they are only likely to sell 1 of - therefore they are going to
    charge enough for that 1 to cover the cost of all 4. It's all about
    economics in a small market place, and is part of the reason why we have
    less product available in Australia than other markets, and we pay more for
    our products than in other markets. If you don't like that, you are welcome
    to go back to whereever you or your ancestors came from and leave us the
    hell alone.
     
    Justin Thyme, Oct 6, 2005
    #14
  15. Noons

    Justin Thyme Guest

    That's because it's not just a case of Maxwell's ringing Nikon and saying
    "we want 40 lenses, send 'em over". Usually products are forward ordered
    months in advance. The forward orders are used by the manufacturers to work
    out how many to manufacture. Excesses are normally manufactured to cover for
    unexpected spikes in sales, but that is still no guarantee that if an
    Australian distributor wants 40 lenses when they would normally only do
    10/month, that that stock will be available.
    Another issue is the manufacturers policies regarding minimum order
    quantities etc. Nikon won't stick a lens in a box to send to australia. They
    will however send a lot of cameras and lenses out. Maxwell's can't stick an
    order in for just a handful of bits, they have to order a lot of stuff, and
    most of it will be in carton quantities also. So they only order of Nikon
    every month, and your 40 lenses stay unordered until that regular order goes
    in.
    There is also the obscene cost of freight, and customs clearances.
    Distributors minimize the number of orders and maximise the quantities in
    those orders so as to keep freight costs down.
    Finally, even if the goods are ordered and shipped and delivered to
    Australia - if a bunch of dickheads down at the wharfs are having a bad day,
    you will wait weeks or months for your stock to arrive. I once waited 8
    months for $100k of stock to get through the wharfs. By the time I got it,
    it was out of date. If Johnny and Costello did manage to put the cleaners
    through this pack of lazy bastards it would do no end of wonders in
    improving this country.
     
    Justin Thyme, Oct 6, 2005
    #15
  16. Noons

    tlai909 Guest

    Just buy from an overseas source.

    It goes without saying that even on common items they do stock, buying
    from overseas is cheap and less hassle.

    T.
     
    tlai909, Oct 6, 2005
    #16
  17. Noons

    Noons Guest

    Justin Thyme apparently said,on my timestamp of 6/10/2005 11:33 PM:
    to you maybe. To me and a lot of other users they are the only lens
    system in 35mm that makes any sense. And has done so for more than
    25 years. Of course, when crap distributors like Maxwells also are
    in charge of selling native maker's lenses, the so called "appeal" of
    Adaptall will have to be down-played as much as possible.
    Besides, there is a lot more moolah in selling a native-mount lens,
    no? After all, it locks the punter in. But let's not let truth
    get in the middle of a load of rubbish, no?
    That's nonsense. "Stocking" has got NOTHING to do with
    making it available. Maxwells just don't want to sell
    the stuff, period, their own words. They don't need to LIE
    and claim it's Tamron that don't make it anymore.
    It's got nothing to do with vague "stocking" concepts and
    other woolworths economics...
    Yup. Precisely why from now on my purchasing of Maxwell's
    entire line of products will be through either 2nd hand dealers
    or overseas retailers. Let's see how much moolah that sort of
    "economic rationality" is gonna bring them from me. Before you
    come back with the classic "they couldn't care less": good
    for them, let's hope that serves them well in future. Last I heard,
    like other similar distributors of photo equipment, they aren't
    doing as well as expected. Couldn't happen to a better mob.
    No we don't. What we have is crap distributors and retailers that
    don't know how to handle small markets in this day and age.
    The same model that worked 40 years ago won't work now. Australia
    is not the ONLY small market in the world: if others can handle theirs
    successfully, so should we. Maxwells can't handle Tamron-style
    products efficiently? They should drop the line and let someone else
    carry it. But that would be a threat to their little monopoly,
    wouldn't it? Better keep the status quo as is, that way no one
    can make "waves".

    That's such a tired old bullshit reply.
    Just to piss your kind off, I won't go back and I'll keep
    making as much noise as I feel like and am entitled to.
    And *you* and *your* ancestors can piss off instead.
    Howzzat for size? Who the heck do you think you are to
    pretend to speak for Australians as "us"?
    Bad call...


    Nuno Souto
    in overcast Sydney, Australia
     
    Noons, Oct 6, 2005
    #17
  18. Jesus Cartman, If this is how you react to a 'perceived' injustice....how do
    you react to to lifes 'real' injustices?

    If they are to lazy to sell it to you then get it from overseas/second hand
    and all your aims are achieved. You get your product, they don't get your
    money - end of story.


    You cant make someone sell you something.
     
    Steve Franklin, Oct 6, 2005
    #18
  19. Noons

    Kate Guest

    I have to agree with you.

    I have become so sick of dealing with the pathetic shops in Melbourne CBD
    (you know who you are), that I am now of the opinion that **** trying to
    help Australians, and keep Aussie's in business. Why should I?

    The service and prices we get here are SO shit, that why would I want to buy
    here? I tried to do the right thing by supporting the Australian shops, but
    they don't leave you much alternative when they hardly stock anything
    decent, and the prices are way over kill.

    Lately I just order from overseas straight away. Atleast the Yanks know a
    thing or two about service.
     
    Kate, Oct 6, 2005
    #19
  20. Noons

    tlai909 Guest

    Other industries have the same 'dealers' structure but IMO none are as
    inefficient and byzantine as the photographics industry.

    Perhaps is it because they think photographers are all amateurs who
    just **** around in their spare time???

    Perhaps it's the low volume?

    Perhaps it's a flow on from the old 32% tax structure?

    T.
     
    tlai909, Oct 7, 2005
    #20
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