another 35mm point & shoot thread! (but different: this time for mom, & then some)

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by jazzb, Dec 18, 2003.

  1. Hi Jazzb,

    I am not sure about the warranty issue, however I believe that people can
    have problems regarding Canon gear bought in US and their UK division
    sorting out any problems.

    One thing you could try is getting in touch with Fuji's Customer Liaision
    Manager, explain your predicament and see if they themselves can arrange
    this camera model to be delivered to your local camera store so you can view
    it first hand.

    Well, there is no harm in trying and being the season of good-will they may
    be more helpful than normal ;-)

    Cheers,
    Stephen
     
    Stephen Leslie, Dec 22, 2003
    #21
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  2. jazzb

    Frank Pittel Guest

    My personal opinions aside. Have you considered APS?

    : Okay, folks, I realize there have been a number of these threads over
    : the years (which I've been reading) covering 35mm compacts for kids to
    : compacts for grannies, but not much for mom. There also hasn't been
    : one in the past few months, and there are some new developments in the
    : 35mm point & shoot market lately (specifically: Canon's new "u"
    : series, Oly's update of the Stylus line, and Konica's p&s
    : "disappearance" after being "absorbed" by Minolta), which I think
    : might warrant some new discussion.

    : I've done the usual exhaustive internet research (Google, the not very
    : illuminating often conflicting price/user review sites,
    : photographyreview.com, photo.net, manufacturer sites, jpmccormac's
    : user recommendations, popphoto, photo blogs, etc, etc. I have even
    : resorted to fiendishly surveying the user reviews on the CircuitCity
    : site, where clearly, every camera ever made is a 4.5 out of 5, if not
    : better) and have been to B&H and a number of the hackshops near Times
    : Sq. just to get a hand on various (often dusty) models. So, I'm
    : essentially looking for some other opinions/perspectives to help me
    : finalize my decision.

    : Nudge me, please.

    : As I've mentioned, I'm looking for a 35mm point & shoot for my mother
    : that meets these criteria as closely as possible:

    : -NO DIGITAL, don't even think about bringing it up ;-). She is a
    : techno-phobe of the highest order (she requires a "chaperone" in order
    : to get online. VCR is a method of torture. She's that bad.), so,
    : simplicity of operation will be important. A plethora of features is
    : not required.

    : -She is left-handed, but has used "regular" right-handed--oriented
    : compacts, so this isn't really all that significant, especially as no
    : one makes a respectable left-handed camera nowadays anyway. Just
    : thought I'd mention it to further complicate matters.

    : -Her right hand is somewhat impaired. Doesn't have too much dexterity
    : with it. So, she needs something she can hold with relative ease.
    : Nothing too tiny, but still portable enough to slip in a bag or
    : pocket. Also must be durable, in case of droppage. Preferably metal.

    : -She has made it known that she "likes zoom." She requires zoom. She
    : has some trouble getting around (she has multiple sclerosis). It must
    : be a zoom. I'm well-aware of the benefits of fixed-lens systems (i.e.
    : OSE, AFM35, Yash T4/5, Ricoh GRx, etc), but those are, unfortunately,
    : not an option. Thus, I'm focusing on short(-er) zooms 28/35/38mm -
    : 70/90/105mm at most.

    : -No SLR's or SLR-type cameras. She already has an entry-level Canon
    : Rebel my father purchased for her (supposedly - I think we all know
    : who he bought it for ;-) in a moment of sheer folly, and which has
    : proven to be, as you'd expect, completely unsuitable.

    : -She will be shooting the majority of shots indoors. Church-functions,
    : family and friends, holidays and such. Though, of course there will be
    : some outdoor shots, and she likes taking pictures of her flowers. So,
    : we're talking: fast(-er, -ish) lens, good flash range and autoexposure
    : system, decent macro capability. Tall order, I know. Might as well
    : just say "she needs a good camera."

    : -Preferably in the $200 or lower range or thereabouts. These days that
    : shouldn't be too much of an issue considering how far p&s prices have
    : fallen in the past year or two - what with the "rise of digital" (and
    : yes, I just bought my brothers digicams for Xmas - a Lumix for one, an
    : A70 for the other - so I say that without a hint of irony;-)

    : My short-list currently includes, at the higher-end:

    : -Yashica T4 Zoom (28-70mm/f4.5-8)
    : -Rollei Prego 70 (35-70mm/f4.5-8.5)
    : -Leica Z2X (35-70mm/f4-7.6) [discontinued, but still available]

    : at the lower-end:

    : -Canon Sure Shot 105 Zoom S (38-105mm/f3.8-9.9) [being phased out]
    : -Canon Sure Shot Z90W (28-90mm/f4.5-8.9) [being phased out]
    : -Canon Sure Shot 90u (38-90mm/f4.7-10.5)

    : bringing up the rear:

    : -Olympus Stylus Epic 80 Zoom (the old 38-80mm/f4.5-9.9 one, not the
    : new slower one)

    : As you can see, I'm favoring older models in general (and even those
    : are not particularly fast), as I haven't found much literature on the
    : newer one's, which appear to be, all in all, uninspiring.

    : Manufacturers seem to be content with putting out slower lenses with
    : longer zooms to very little effect. Though the Canon "u" series
    : cameras do seem very well-built (aluminum facing, and such - anybody
    : have any experience with 'em?).

    : Oly's new Stylus updates (the "Epic" name is effectively being
    : dropped) feature slower lenses than their previous incarnations. Same
    : goes for Rollei's Prego and Pentax's IQZoom "updated" lines.

    : I'm a proud owner of a Nikon SLR system, but even I must admit that
    : their compact line is decidely unimpressive (and probably always has
    : been - outside of their high-end models). Sorry, Nikon. No soup for
    : you.

    : I've pretty much eliminated Konica compacts (as much as I like the
    : Lexio 70, and might pick it up for myself if I can find one)
    : considering they will no longer be making or supporting 35mm P&S (to
    : focus on digital I assume, at least according to the salesperson at
    : B&H). I can just imagine what it would be like trying to get any
    : service from them.

    : I'm not a big fan of Minolta or Pentax (at least in terms of compacts)
    : and their offerings don't seem any better than what I already have on
    : the list (the Freedom Explorer EX is discontinued, and impossible to
    : find regardless). So, they were eliminated.

    : Oly, despite being the market-leader, doesn't seem to offer much
    : outside of the deservedly well-touted OSE. I did, half-heartedly,
    : include the Stylus Epic Zoom 80, if only because it seems to
    : constantly get praised online. Though, another salesman at B&H made it
    : clear that Oly's were not really worth talking about (but, then again
    : he was a Leica user/lover and recommended the Yashica or Leica).

    : I've also soured on the whole "patented clamshell" design. Plastic
    : "sliding protective lens cover which also serves as your on/off
    : switch" = immanent disaster (or impending repair), in my opinion. This
    : was only affirmed by my recent visit to a couple of area superstores
    : to look at these cameras where I discovered Oly's glaringly, harshly
    : denuded in each of those stores. A painful sight, indeed. Nothing but
    : sad hinges. User reviews only corroborate this. Not to mention the
    : unappealing amorphous-blob shape (otherwise known as "the soap bar").

    : I was initially set on the Yashica, but wasn't aware it only had a
    : 5-step zoom, which I know my mother would find extremely irritating.
    : It also had smallish buttons and LCD, though the camera body and
    : overall build quality were excellent. In addition, I have read of a
    : number of issues with shutter-lag and mediocre flash performance,
    : which, for someone like my mother, would be particularly problematic.
    : But, I'm not quite sure.

    : So, that's my predicament. I'll be quiet now. I need some convincing.

    : I'd appreciate any and all assistance.
    : Thank you.

    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Dec 22, 2003
    #22
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  3. jazzb

    Alan Browne Guest

    Frank: have you considered clipping long posts before replying?
     
    Alan Browne, Dec 22, 2003
    #23
  4. Hi Frank,

    As to your suggestion of APS, these days there is no real point as its a
    declining market due to its high running cost compared to 35mm and that
    digital is beginning to take a fair chunk of its market.

    On APS being suitable for Jazzb mother, well its only benefit would be ease
    of loading, on all other front's I'd say it loses to 35mm. though this is a
    personal viewpoint. My reasoning is:
    1. First and foremost - cost. processing and films, plus choice of films is
    much better for 35mm than APS.
    2. Quality - 35mm is 40% larger than APS (partly why digital is taking its
    market).
    3. Due to film size, cameras are smaller and may be difficult for his mother
    to operate.
    4. Due to limited hand use, changing the Classic/HDTV/Panoramic options
    would probably be difficult, even I find these hard to turn & in 35mm terms
    its just a matter of getting a larger print and triming to size.
    5. Choice of cameras - last year there were about 15 APS cameras to select,
    this time its down to 5 with the main one being the Canon Ixus III. 35mm has
    lots of choices and again, due to digital they are becoming even better
    value in terms of size, zoom range and build quality for your money.
    6. 35mm is definately going to be around longer than APS, in fact I give APS
    less than 3yrs in main market. As a guide, Ricoh have recently announced
    they are longer making film compact cameras, to concentrate totally on
    digital, so look for your GR1's now before they become scarce.

    Hope that helps and have a Great Christmas.
    Cheers,
    Stephen
    Edinburgh
     
    Stephen Leslie, Dec 22, 2003
    #24
  5. jazzb

    Bandicoot Guest

    [SNIP]
    Not read my buying advice often, have you?

    ;-)



    Peter
     
    Bandicoot, Dec 23, 2003
    #25
  6. jazzb

    Bandicoot Guest

    I remember thinking this sounded interesting when it came out, and then I
    forgot all about it. Anyone used one? What's that lens like?

    My usual P&S is a Ricoh GR1v, and I don't expect the lens to be in that
    league, but if it is 'OK' this might be a very nice 'party camera'.



    Peter (Whose GF likes pictures taken of herself & friends in the pub., and
    finds 28mm not always wide enough...)
     
    Bandicoot, Dec 23, 2003
    #26
  7. jazzb

    jazzb Guest

    Quick update on the Fuji. I was in contact with someone from Singapore
    who had recently purchased this camera, and then discovered that
    apparently, in Japan, there exists a Fuji Zoom Date f2.8 in black,
    named (as you'd expect) the Fuji Silvi f2.8 Black. Only 5000 of these
    bodies were produced in Japan. More importantly, this black version of
    the Zoom Date has exposure compensation, in half-stops up to two stops
    over and underexposure, which the original, obviously then, does not.

    This is what it looks like:
    http://www.fujinon.co.jp/jp/news/n_030821_2.htm

    He also mentioned that, "the left shutter button is only applicable
    for self portraits, i.e. you set it in a mode where you tell the
    camera that you are taking pictures of yourself, else the left shutter
    release button does not work."

    That kinda puts a damper on left-handed use. I suppose it could be
    "fooled" into using its "self-portrait mode" all the time, though I'm
    not sure how that would work, or how it would alter the autoexposure
    system, as I'd imagine the self-portrait mode entails some sort of
    canned pre-settings.

    Still seems to be a nice p&s option, though, compared to the other
    stuff out there. He was also decidely sour on the Yashica Zoom (as a
    former owner), though he didn't specify why. Oh well.

    Merry Christmas all.

    -J
     
    jazzb, Dec 23, 2003
    #27
  8. jazzb

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    Could be due to slow and unreliable (passive not active) autofocus
    and a long shutter-button to snapshot lag time.

    However the T4*Zoom is one of the few 28-NN zooms left on the market.
    Konica has discontinued the Lexio 28-70, the Minolta FZE/Riva 28-75
    might also be discontinued, and the Rollei Prego 28-90 is long gone.

    All part of digicams replacing point-and-shoots for the consumer...
     
    Bill Tuthill, Dec 23, 2003
    #28
  9. jazzb

    Nick C Guest

    Locally, processing costs for 35mm or APS is about the same for equal
    number of prints.
    Inconsequential when considering small size prints are made.
    Mother would rather carry an APS camera in her purse than have a 35mm in
    her purse.
    The appealing trait of APS is mid-roll film change. One can carry 200,
    400, and 800 film and very easily mid-roll change film to suite the
    scene being photographed.
    There is a place for APS, 35mm, and digital, depending upon the intent
    of the user. Far too often, IMO, foolhardy advice is given without
    considering the intent of the equipment user. Advice being given as
    concerns the advisor rather than the user.
    Instamtic film can still be had. APS and 35mm will be available longer
    than many people here realize, especially 35mm. Sixty years of world
    wide 35mm use is not going to be abandoned as quickly as many think it
    will be.
    The same thing was said about Nikon making P&S film cameras. Yet, at the
    recent local camera fare, Nikon rep's said that Nikon will continue to
    make P&S film cameras.

    Note, new Nikon lenses are designed for use on film and digital cameras.
    Nikon has also announced they will not abandon their lens mount.
    I most sincerely wish you and yours a most joyous Christmas.

    Nick
     
    Nick C, Dec 25, 2003
    #29
  10. jazzb

    Paul Rubin Guest

    I think hardly any of the tiny P&S APS cameras support mid-roll change.
    126 and even 110 film are quite hard to find these days. You might be able
    to get it at specialist dealers, but usually not at convenience stores.
    Nikon was always in a much bigger volume market than Ricoh. I wonder
    if my GR1 is worth anything any more. I really should sell it but it's
    such a nice camera even though I haven't used it in years.
    They're making some digital-only lenses in the F mount now though.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 25, 2003
    #30
  11. Hi Nick,

    Merry Christmas to yourself & everyone else out there and hope Santa was
    good to you.

    Anyway, to your feedback concerning my APS views there are a couple of
    things to consider:
    Well in the UK high street store that's not the case, where for a 36exp.
    35mm film is £5.99 next day service compared to £9.99 for AOS 40exp.
    I agree here, but when you find that all important image you wish to
    enlarge, it does come in to play, though digital suffers the same problem
    depending on pixels.
    I agree here too, though as I said digital is matching its quality and can
    offer better smaller sizes such as the Minolta Dimage Xi or the Sony
    DSC-U30/50. Also, the OP did mention that 35mm compacts were looked at, so
    size was'nt quite an issue, more that ease of use of the control buttons was
    of a higher priority.
    This is true, but not available on every APS model, and what's wrong with
    just rewinding 35mm and changing. Okay, if you cannot reload in
    SLR/rangefinder/manual camera it mean's getting the film developed, but the
    cost is'nt that high.
    I agree that film & digital can and do work beside one another, however from
    a professional viewpoint (I work in a camera store), APS is going to die out
    or become a specialist processing service over the next 3-5yrs.
    I agree about Instamatic, but that has a very niche market and is only now
    starting to become threated from digital. Instant's are great for kids as
    they are simple to use and a great price for results straight away. However,
    kids are very smart these days and computer literate by the time they are 6.
    (Saw my cousin's daughter today who's 4 and she made sure her granny turned
    on all the right controls for their cooker earlier in the week when she was
    pretending to make something in the oven.).

    I also agree with 35mm film, just not APS. For example, what happened to
    disc film? Then there is 126 which can be processed at specialist places,
    but Kodak no longer provide this service. Another is 127, though that is not
    as bad as my workplace still sells b+w for it.
    My issue here is that this is what Ricoh themselves have said and was
    reported in this month's camera magazines (well AP or PP in the UK). I am
    not saying that all manufacturers will stop film compacts as there is still
    a very big market and not everyone wants digital, just that some will stop
    making them.

    As to your Nikon point, well that is sound thinking by them or they would
    have lots of un-happy users who bought there great fast lenses. Also, it
    encourages people to buy a digital body as it means they can still use their
    lenses. The same counts for Pentax and Canon. The only ones losing out are
    Minolta as they are a bit slow in producing a digital SLR, but this no doubt
    is the result of Konica buying them over.

    I always try to give the best advice to customers and ecourage them to do
    research, such as this group and see if the can try to look at five models
    in their hands as the handling and feel is quite important as it can be a
    large investment and you want to feel confortable using your equipment
    rather than leaving it in its camera bag gathering dust.


    Cheers,
    Stephen
    P.S. I will be leaving my current workplace for a position with better hours
    & pay so that I can start taking photos and enjoy the hobby again as you can
    see too many cameras; lenses; flashguns in your sleep!
     
    Stephen Leslie, Dec 25, 2003
    #31
  12. jazzb

    Nick C Guest

    If we were to get together to discuss the assets of digital and film, I
    have no doubt that the conversation would indeed be interesting,
    considering the many uses, number of times a camera is used, and/or
    types of photography that interests the common camera user.

    In the end, if a conclusion were to be drawn from such a conversation,
    my guess would be that there would be no single clear cut decision that
    could be made favoring one over the other, best befitting the common
    camera user.

    In my minds eye, a film camera is not the best media for everybody and
    neither is a digicam. The equipment we are discussing are only tools and
    as tools, there exists a commonality. But there is a proper tool to be
    used to accomplish a task and as tools they are more often than not,
    only occasionally used; stored in a tool box, unless the user is a
    mechanic or an avowed tinker.

    Nick
     
    Nick C, Dec 26, 2003
    #32
  13. Hi Nick,

    Well said and I agree with you totally.
    Now lets just concentrate on achieving the desired results and get
    snappping.

    I just subscribed to PP so will be using their monthly competition as a
    source of inspiration.

    Feastive cheers,
    Stephen.
     
    Stephen Leslie, Dec 26, 2003
    #33
  14. jazzb

    Bandicoot Guest


    Thanks Jazz, doues sound interesting...


    Peter
     
    Bandicoot, Dec 28, 2003
    #34
  15. jazzb

    Bandicoot Guest

    [SNIP]
    Minor point, but Instamatic is NOT 'instant' - as in Polaroid or Fuji
    instant cameras, or the Kodak instants that were eventually withdrawn
    because they infringed Polaroid patents.

    Instamatic was a Kodak trade-name for a very basic range of P&S cameras,
    mostly (all?) using 126 film.



    Peter
     
    Bandicoot, Dec 29, 2003
    #35
  16. jazzb

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Instamatic was 126 film; the name was also used in the Pocket Instamatic
    series, which used 110 film.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 29, 2003
    #36
  17. jazzb

    parchiao Guest

    He also mentioned that, "the left shutter button is only applicable
    Got to clarify this cause jazzb was quoting what I told him/her. I
    have the Fuji Silvi f2.8 Black, and this camera actually works with
    both the left and right shutter button. I had the silver version (for
    an extremely short while) that does not come with exposure
    compensation, but I can't recall that I can actually use the left
    shutter button except when the camera is set to self portrait mode.
     
    parchiao, Jan 16, 2004
    #37
  18. jazzb

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    How do you like the Silvi f2.8? Are results good to excellent
    at all focal distances? Or is it more a short-range people camera?
     
    Bill Tuthill, Jan 16, 2004
    #38
  19. jazzb

    parchiao Guest

    How do you like the Silvi f2.8? Are results good to excellent
    To be honest, I did not use the silver version of the Silvi before I
    sold that away, and only received the black version two days ago from
    a friend who is just back from Tokyo.

    The built of the camera is pretty good, and it is entirely plastic.
    The viewfinder is small and dark, and not well protected. I don't know
    a better way to decribe it, but you can probably see how the
    viewfinder looks like from the rear of the camera by following this
    link http://tv.fujinon.jp/products/camera/silvi_f2.8/ The zoom
    functions by zooming either way in four steps. No ISO control, but the
    black version does have exposure compensation in half stops. The
    package comes with a remote control too.
     
    parchiao, Jan 17, 2004
    #39
  20. jazzb

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    Do you mean when you turn the Silvi F2.8 on, it's in the middle of its
    zoom range? Wow, that's great, I have always wanted P&S zooms to do that
    (especially ones that start at 28mm).

    It's certainly an attractive camera because of its 28-50/2.8-5.6 lens,
    fastest ever in a P&S, so I'm hoping optics are good.
     
    Bill Tuthill, Jan 17, 2004
    #40
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