Anyone remember 8mm home movies? replacement bulb question...

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by slugbug, Oct 14, 2006.

  1. slugbug

    slugbug Guest

    And when I say "home movies" in this case, I'm not referring to 8mm or
    Hi8 tapes. I mean the actual film, as in, you expose it to light, get
    it developed, and then project it on a screen.

    Well, most of the videos of my childhood are in this format. I think my
    Dad has a decent amount of family films from the mid 1960's until the
    mid 1980's. My Grandfather has some that are even older than that. My
    Dad's projector got messed up about 25 years ago, and we haven't been
    able to watch them since.

    I recently found a Sears 8mm movie projector, model 584 92000, for 5
    bucks at a thrift store. The thing was in excellent shape, in the
    original carrying case. I tested it out, and found that the motor and
    even the bulb worked fine.

    Today my Dad brought down a couple of reels of old film from 30 years
    ago, and we finally tested the thing out. It works great!

    So, as part of an upcoming family reunion of sorts, I thought it would
    be fun to show some of these old films.

    However, I also figured that with my luck, the old bulb would burn out
    after just 20 minutes or so, ruining the presentation.

    I started looking for replacement bulbs, and the best price I could
    find for a new one was about $36. There are some used ones on eBay for
    about $22 including shipping, but I am a bit leery of those. I also
    don't really want to spend 5 times as much as I paid for the whole
    projector for a bulb that is rated to last only 15 hours.

    This got me wondering if there was some sort of alternative. First, I
    thought about rewiring it so that it would use a lower voltage bulb. I
    decided not to mess with that at this point.

    The bulb it is supposed to work with is this: (sells for $36 new)

    Lamp Type INCANDESCENT
    Base Type G17Q
    Volts 120
    Watts 150
    Color Temp 3150
    Rated Life (hrs) 15
    Max. Length (in) 3.5
    ANSI # DJL


    I also found this one (sells for $10 new)

    Lamp Type INCANDESCENT
    Base Type G17Q
    Volts 120
    Watts 150
    Color Temp 2850
    Rated Life (hrs) 500
    Max. Length (in) 3.03
    ANSI # DFF

    Note that everything seems very similar between the two, except for a
    slightly different "color temp", and the fact that the DFF bulb is .47
    inch shorter. I'm not sure whether or not this would keep this bulb
    from working. I'm guessing it was a change they made simply to keep me
    from buying the cheaper bulb for some reason. I am also somewhat
    dubious of the 500 hour life rating on the second one. Seems too good
    to be true.

    So this is my question: Should I chance it and try out the cheaper $10
    model? Do you think it will work? Thanks!
     
    slugbug, Oct 14, 2006
    #1
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  2. Personally, I would forget the bulb and projector and send all the
    footage out to be cleaned, polished and transferred to DVD.
    Won't be cheap, but the memories are priceless.

    If you are going to go the projector route, then buy the right bulb.
    The film stock was designed to be projected through tungsten light.
    If you don't, then all the footage will look rather orange with that
    cheap ass wrong color temp bulb. And that just ain't right. A three
    hundred degrees difference at the low end of the Kelvin scale is not
    going to look "slightly different". The blacks will be dark red, the
    underexposed stuff will look .....really underexposed and the stuff
    shot under incandescent lights will look REALLY orange.

    Besides, 15 hours of bulb life is an eternity in home movie viewing
    hours.

    Don't try transferring the footage to video using the 'ol Sears
    projector. The results won't be very pleasing to the eye. Unless of
    course, you like seeing an annoying flicker throughout your family
    filmfest.

    Again........ Send it out and converted to your favorite archiving
    format.

    Bill F.
    www.billfarnsworthvideo.com
     
    Bill Farnsworth, Oct 14, 2006
    #2
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  3. slugbug

    sgordon Guest

    I agree with everything you say, except calling DVD an "archival" format.
    The fact is, the 8mm home movies have lasted 50-70 years, which is likely
    far far longer than a DVD copy is going to last. While I also recommend
    getting them transferred to DVD, so that they can be conveniently enjoyed
    over and over again... I ALSO recommend keeping very good care of the
    original film, because THAT is the best archival format at this moment.
    Furthermore, don't necessarily expect that the DVD copy is going to look
    any better than a projection of the film. More likely, the projection of
    the film is going to look better than the DVD. Yet another reason
    to keep the film.

    Scott

    : > And when I say "home movies" in this case, I'm not referring to 8mm
    : > or
    : > Hi8 tapes. I mean the actual film, as in, you expose it to light,
    : > get
    : > it developed, and then project it on a screen.
    : >
    : > Well, most of the videos of my childhood are in this format. I think
    : > my
    : > Dad has a decent amount of family films from the mid 1960's until
    : > the
    : > mid 1980's. My Grandfather has some that are even older than that.
    : > My
    : > Dad's projector got messed up about 25 years ago, and we haven't
    : > been
    : > able to watch them since.
    : >
    : > I recently found a Sears 8mm movie projector, model 584 92000, for 5
    : > bucks at a thrift store. The thing was in excellent shape, in the
    : > original carrying case. I tested it out, and found that the motor
    : > and
    : > even the bulb worked fine.
    : >
    : > Today my Dad brought down a couple of reels of old film from 30
    : > years
    : > ago, and we finally tested the thing out. It works great!
    : >
    : > So, as part of an upcoming family reunion of sorts, I thought it
    : > would
    : > be fun to show some of these old films.
    : >
    : > However, I also figured that with my luck, the old bulb would burn
    : > out
    : > after just 20 minutes or so, ruining the presentation.
    : >
    : > I started looking for replacement bulbs, and the best price I could
    : > find for a new one was about $36. There are some used ones on eBay
    : > for
    : > about $22 including shipping, but I am a bit leery of those. I also
    : > don't really want to spend 5 times as much as I paid for the whole
    : > projector for a bulb that is rated to last only 15 hours.
    : <<<<SNIP>>>>
    : > So this is my question: Should I chance it and try out the cheaper
    : > $10
    : > model? Do you think it will work? Thanks!
    : >

    : Personally, I would forget the bulb and projector and send all the
    : footage out to be cleaned, polished and transferred to DVD.
    : Won't be cheap, but the memories are priceless.

    : If you are going to go the projector route, then buy the right bulb.
    : The film stock was designed to be projected through tungsten light.
    : If you don't, then all the footage will look rather orange with that
    : cheap ass wrong color temp bulb. And that just ain't right. A three
    : hundred degrees difference at the low end of the Kelvin scale is not
    : going to look "slightly different". The blacks will be dark red, the
    : underexposed stuff will look .....really underexposed and the stuff
    : shot under incandescent lights will look REALLY orange.

    : Besides, 15 hours of bulb life is an eternity in home movie viewing
    : hours.

    : Don't try transferring the footage to video using the 'ol Sears
    : projector. The results won't be very pleasing to the eye. Unless of
    : course, you like seeing an annoying flicker throughout your family
    : filmfest.

    : Again........ Send it out and converted to your favorite archiving
    : format.

    : Bill F.
    : www.billfarnsworthvideo.com
     
    sgordon, Oct 14, 2006
    #3
  4. Before this turns into another fucking beaten to death archive
    thread..........
    .......... where exactly did I call DVD is an archival format?

    Here?
    Nope....

    Don't put words in my mouth, son........OK?

    Bill F.
    www.billfarnsworthvideo.com
     
    Bill Farnsworth, Oct 14, 2006
    #4
  5. slugbug

    sgordon Guest

    : Before this turns into another fucking beaten to death archive
    : thread..........
    : ......... where exactly did I call DVD is an archival format?

    when you said:
    "Again........ Send it out and converted to your favorite archiving format."
    When the only conversion you had discussed was to DVD.
     
    sgordon, Oct 14, 2006
    #5
  6. slugbug

    Kill Bill Guest

    Yep.. awesome! Did a few of those myself growing up..

    Skip the bulb.. Take the film over to a transfer house, and have them
    professionally transfered to DVCAM. This way, you can edit them
    yourself from a DVCAM deck to a delivery method such as DVD.

    Keep the tapes as archival, but also.. don't throw away those films.

    -bill
     
    Kill Bill, Oct 14, 2006
    #6
  7. slugbug

    Bob Ford Guest

    Sorry Scott but Bill is right.This subject has already been beaten to
    death on this NG.

    The last discussion mentioned the fact that you can buy archival
    quality DVDs. They are more expensive but are supposed to have much
    longer life. My media supplier stocks and sells such discs.

    I do a lot of work at a local Comcast production facility and they
    have archived almost all of their old footage onto standard DVDs.

    If they were my films I would have them cleaned and transferred to
    DVD. I doubt I would go to the trouble of having them transferred to
    DVCam and editing them. Sounds like a long edit session to me.
    My 2 cents on the subject.
    Bob Ford
    Images In Motion
    www.imagesinmotion.com
     
    Bob Ford, Oct 14, 2006
    #7
  8. You guys are all happy to spend this guys' money... geez. Overkill. Ask
    him to run it thru a Rank Cintel with liquid gate and lay off to HDcam
    with DaVinci color correction, why don't ya. It's just home movies,
    FCOL. I say:

    Buy the used spare bulb of the exact same type, or call up a local
    "real" camera store or professional developer, the kind used by wedding
    photogs, they can get you the right bulb cheaper, may even have it in
    stock. Treating the bulb right keeps it healthy: don't jar the
    projector or move it until the bulb has plenty of time to cool down,
    don't turn it on and off rapidly.

    You can buy a mirror device to transfer the movies to tape, or, you can
    just shoot with a good camcorder off the projector screen or piece of
    clean white foamcore. Some will guffaw, but if you have one of the
    projectors with a zoom lens, shrinking the image down to about two feet
    diagonal spreads out the hot spot from the bulb pretty evenly.
    Otherwise physically move the projector closer and focus the image the
    same way. Arrange the tripod above and behind the projector and adjust
    the keystoning of the screen or board to counter the offset. Foamcore
    can be better than a beaded screen because with the image made smaller
    and the camera zooming into it, the beaded reflective texture of a
    screen can become objectionable. Set the camcorder for a locked-off
    manual exposure, white balance on the white leader of the film or set
    to outdoor color temp. You may not see any flicker at all. Do not apply
    any shutter. Many of the "services" people hire to transfer their 8mm
    to DVD do little more than the above, behind closed doors anyway.

    If shot with a dv camcorder, the tapes can be viewed directly on TV or
    imported into an editing program and cleaned up, and spliced into
    longer than the old 3.5 minute clips and you can add music and
    commentary if you want, and burn DVDs or make VHS dubs.

    The original films are your ultimate back-up; for casual and simple
    viewing, the above procedure will be plenty good enough, without
    putting you in the poor house.

    Enjoy the memories!
     
    nobody special, Oct 14, 2006
    #8
  9. slugbug

    Jukka Aho Guest

    Also, disable electronic image stabilization. At least the SteadyShot
    feature on Sony camcorders goes haywire if you keep it on while shooting
    a projected move.
    There is a VirtualDub filter for reducing the flicker:
    <http://neuron2.net/deflick/flick.html>

    There is also a hotspot filter for dealing with uneven illumination:
    <http://neuron2.net/hotspot/hotspot.html>
     
    Jukka Aho, Oct 14, 2006
    #9
  10. slugbug

    Jukka Aho Guest

    "Movie", not "move". A typo.
     
    Jukka Aho, Oct 14, 2006
    #10
  11. slugbug

    sgordon Guest

    : Sorry Scott but Bill is right.This subject has already been beaten to
    : death on this NG. The last discussion mentioned the fact that you can
    : buy archival quality DVDs. They are more expensive but are supposed to
    : have much longer life.

    Maybe we're just arguing semantics, but I don't know of any serious
    film restoration house that would consider any DVD-based format to
    be archival. The image is compressed, the discs are dye-based
    and their lifespan is debatable, and the image quality is only as
    good as the transfer that is done (and local transfer houses often
    do a rather poor job, in my experience... that's why I started doing
    it myself).

    The real archive here is the film itself, since it seems in this case to
    fortunately be a stock that is holding up very well. By all means clean
    it, by all means transfer to DVD - or better yet to some less compressed
    format on a hard drive with which you can make periodic backups (that's
    what I do). But the most important thing is to take good care of the film.
    Who knows, 10 years from now there will probably be a way of getting
    an even better transfer off of it.

    Maybe this topic has been "beaten to death". But I've been reading
    this group for about a year and I don't recall there being some
    revelation that DVD is an archival format for film. Furthermore,
    I think that Bill even clarified that that was not what he said.
    And, isn't that's what these groups are for? Beating dead horses? :)
     
    sgordon, Oct 14, 2006
    #11
  12. slugbug

    sgordon Guest

    Oh, and one more thing - to continue beating the dead horse...
    15 years ago my grandfather brought his old home movies to a local
    duplication house, who transfered them to VHS. It was great being
    able to pop them in the VCR whenever we wanted, and I remember him
    thinking - "cool, now there's no reason to keep the films". I had
    to convince him to hang on to them. Recently I converted them all
    to DVD for the family to enjoy. No way would I use the VHS tapes
    as source material for the DVDs. The original film, naturally,
    had the best quality from which to draw. I'm guessing that 10
    years from now I'll be making HD transfers of the same films,
    they'll look even better and make today's DVD's irrelevant.

    wrote:
    : Who knows, 10 years from now there will probably be a way of getting
    : an even better transfer off of it.
     
    sgordon, Oct 14, 2006
    #12
  13. "manual exposure": Correct

    "balance on white leader": Wrong. Balance on a white card that the
    projector bulb is illuminating before threading film.

    "or set to outdoor color temp": Wrong. Outdoor color temp on consumer
    grade cameras is close to 5600K. The projector bulb is (as stated by
    the original poster) 3150K
    The "outdoor" setting will make all the footage REALLY orange"



    All of the above aside........ remember folks, old film should be
    cleaned, polished AND ideally, spliced onto as few reels as possible
    BEFORE transferring it to video. This is not some thing the average
    consumer knows how to do. Splicing 50ft 8mm reels to 200 or 400ft
    standard 8mm reels first is what most transfer houses encourage. It
    makes the dub process much easier and faster and it is a better way of
    preserving the film because it is wound and stored on a much larger
    radius than 50ft reels. (this is a very good thing)

    The dub from film to tape is the cheap part of the process.

    When dealing with precious home movies, it makes no sense at all to
    have all that done and then attempt some cobbled up way to transfer
    the footage at home.

    To preserve the historical family film footage, I think the original
    poster should .........
    Take my advice (duh) and have the film cleaned polished and
    transferred to his favorite viewing format.
    Buy TWO of the correct projector bulbs.
    Buy a decent protective case that can hold the projector, the TWO
    bulbs, all the film and a copy of the transfer in his favorite viewing
    format and put it away.
    Way down the road, if he or his heirs would like to have copies of the
    film made in some future format, then everything they need is
    preserved right there in one place.

    Bill F.
    www.billfarnsworthvideo.com
     
    Bill Farnsworth, Oct 14, 2006
    #13
  14. slugbug

    Jukka Aho Guest

    Jukka Aho, Oct 14, 2006
    #14
  15. slugbug

    Mike Kujbida Guest

    Mike Kujbida, Oct 14, 2006
    #15
  16. slugbug

    Bob Ford Guest

    Hey Farny:

    I think you and I done stepped in the pucky again.

    If the guy is too frickin' cheap to spend the bucks for the correct
    projector lamp, he sure isn't going to send them out to be cleaned and
    transferred to ANY format ;-^)Bob Ford
    Images In Motion
    www.imagesinmotion.com
     
    Bob Ford, Oct 15, 2006
    #16
  17. Yeah, Bob. I know.
    I'm hoping that he would see the "light". But still come to the dark
    side.

    Bill F.
     
    Bill Farnsworth, Oct 15, 2006
    #17
  18. slugbug

    Alan Frame Guest

    I like that way of thinking.

    My parents have some original standard 8 cine heirloom footage.
    They also have VHS dubs of them.
    I've got a DV copy of it.
    My siblings have copies I've burned on DVD.
    I've got more recent heirloom footage.
    I've got the original camera DVs and the final edit run back to DV.
    (Err, I've also got a 250Gb IDE drive in a ziplock bag, but I'm
    paraniod)
    Friends and relatives have DVD copies of it[0].
    Grandparents *also* have final edits on DV, in a ziplock bag, with
    sillia.

    rgds, Alan
    [0] They got a real kick out of some spilt-screen showing *me* at 6
    months old [B&H clockwork standard 8] next to my 6 month-old son [XM2 SD
    DV] :)
     
    Alan Frame, Oct 15, 2006
    #18
  19. slugbug

    slugbug Guest

    If the guy is too frickin' cheap to spend the bucks for the correct
    Correct. When it comes to consumables, I always make a point of
    looking for a cheaper alternative. I would rather spend time than
    money any day. Besides, in this case I just hate the idea of spending
    7 times as much for a replacement bulb than I spent for the entire
    projector in the first place. If I can get 4 Sylvania 100 Watt bulbs
    for $1, then why is a single 150 Watt bulb selling for $35? It can't
    cost more than $8 to make these things, and I despise huge markups.

    I do the same thing when it comes to TV. Instead of paying a
    recurring cost for cable, I watch only free TV. That is, what is on
    broadcast, and also what is released on DVD, from all the public
    libraries in my state.

    Evidently about 85% of the folks in this country now enjoy paying for
    television, although even cable now has a horrendous amount of
    advertising. I'd rather get most of mine for free, and advertising
    free as well.

    So anyway, yes, I look for alternatives when something seems
    ridiculously overpriced.
     
    slugbug, Oct 15, 2006
    #19
  20. slugbug

    P.C. Ford Guest

    but, like the man says, your choice is not an alternative.

    is a pinto an alternative for a locomotive?

    Video/film related bulbs can be expensive.
     
    P.C. Ford, Oct 16, 2006
    #20
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