Apple. Is it true that no one can stand their latest op-sys?

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by RichA, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. RichA

    Guest Guest

    if you think it's bullshit, by al means cite evidence that shows it to
    be false.

    you won't, because you *can't*. no such evidence exists. you're full of

    what i said is exactly correct, and i told you where to find the proof
    if you don't believe it.
    Guest, Dec 26, 2013
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  2. RichA

    Eric Stevens Guest

    I made it as small as I could:
    I queried what you had written:
    "Do they?? I think not."

    .... and gave a quote:
    " NeXT was founded in 1985 by Apple Computer co-founder Steve Jobs,
    after being forced out of Apple, along with a few of his

    And made no more of it. Far from accepting my mild correction you went
    on to blame your original error on a typo. I pointed out that it was
    far from being a typo "Quite a typo. For a start there is more than a
    one letter difference between 'jobs' and 'Apple'."

    You came back with "there is but they're synonymous. it's an easy
    mistake to make and you are of course, fixating on it." and it's gone
    on from there.
    Your biggest mistake was (as always) failing to accept you had made a
    mistake and arguing on from there.
    Eric Stevens, Dec 26, 2013
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  3. RichA

    Guest Guest

    it was a typo, but i used the wrong word instead of the wrong letter.

    people sometimes say photopaint or paintshop instead of photoshop. i
    think you've done it more than once.

    it happens. it's not a big deal. almost everyone realizes it's a simple
    they are synonymous. apple wouldn't be apple without steve jobs.
    only because you are making a big deal out of it.
    i did admit the mistake the moment you pointed it out.

    i also said it's very minor, and it is.

    you are dragging it out.
    Guest, Dec 26, 2013
  4. RichA

    Eric Stevens Guest

    It's no more a typo than Steve Jobs was Apple at that time. The
    problem here is that you keep using the wrong words and then arguing
    that that the mistaken information they convey is just a trivial
    error. It normally wouldn't worry me except that further down the line
    you will turn what you originally said inside out and argue that
    that's what you really meant all along. That's why I try to pin you
    down to what you really meant at the instant you make your
    Yep, I have. And boy have I made a fuss about it later? No.
    They may be to you, but not to those who attempt to phrase their
    thoughts precisely.
    That's another matter.
    It all blew up from the erroneous claim that it was just typo.
    Eric Stevens, Dec 26, 2013
  5. RichA

    PeterN Guest

    Pzrove the affirmative.
    PeterN, Dec 26, 2013
  6. RichA

    Mayayana Guest

    | it's a term coined by windows users because windows runs on intel and
    | very few intel systems run anything but windows.
    | it's *very* rare one exists without the other.

    What about all those Apple computers, not to
    mention Linux. Now that Macs have Intel CPUs, I
    no longer hear about how an IBM 300 mhz is twice
    as fast as an Intel 1200 mhz, because the cache
    makes all the difference, dontchaknow. Remember
    those snail ads that AppleSeeds loved so much,
    back around 2000? :)

    I've never heard a Windows user refer to "Wintel".
    It doesn't make any sense. (I haven't had an Intel
    CPU for a decade or more. They're like the Apple of
    the chip world. AMD arguably does better, and
    definitely does much cheaper, but Intel manages
    to maintain boutique pricing through marketing and
    brand familiarity.)

    | one way they forced it down everyone's throat was by making it
    | economically unfeasible for clone makers to offer anything *but*
    | windows.

    This is an example of the skewed view you get
    from Apple propaganda. First, there's no such thing
    as a Windows "clone" because there's no such thing
    as an official Windows PC. There are major company
    PCs (Dell, Acer, etc.) and there are so-called white
    box PCs. They're the same thing. Both are just cases
    with an assemblage of standardized parts, onto which
    Windows, Linux, etc. can be installed. The "OEM"
    company puts their logo on the box, and in rare cases
    might use some custom hardware. (Dell is a problem
    that way.) But in general an OEM box is exactly the
    same as hand built. (I build the PCs for myself and friends.
    It's not very hard, and most of the parts are swappable.)

    White box makers thrived for years, at the peak of the
    Windows monopoly. It was common for small companies
    to order through them. What killed them off was falling
    prices. Back when a PC was $1,500-$2,000 it made sense
    to build PCs as a business. Now I can buy a PC on sale
    for under $300. A white box maker probably can't even
    buy the parts for that price. Even the parts apparently have
    little profit margin these days. I have to buy online. Aside
    from Microcenter (where I won't shop because they once
    refused to accept a return on a faulty part, and they're
    essentially a low-end discount store) there's just no place
    local to buy motherboards, expansion cards and CPUs.

    What Microsoft did do was to pressure white box makers
    to install Windows on all PCs, claiming that to do otherwise
    constituted "aiding piracy". They complained about "naked PCs".
    It was a strongarm threat, which was all the more brazen
    given that MS was also selling Windows install disks, and
    their Pro version can be installed on any number of PCs, as
    long as it's one at a time. But that had nothing to do with
    the death of white box makers. It just incensed the small
    number of people who wanted to install Linux, or who had
    a legal Windows CD already.

    Again I would remind you that I'm happy, even delighted,
    to list the various evils of Microsoft. I'm not a Windows groupie.
    That's what I've been trying to explain. Windows users generally
    don't worship Microsoft and buy a new PC every time Bill Gates
    tells us to. I just like the flexibility of the product, I know it very
    well, and I don't see any suitable alternatives for now. I'd be
    happy if I can stay on XP for the next decade. I don't like wasting
    a lot of time having to learn new things for no good reason.

    | a mac user can run *any* third party software they want and install a
    | wide variety of third party hardware.
    I love that argument: "What? I can run Windows on my
    overpriced Mac, if I just buy an overpriced Pro version
    Windows disk and accept that Apple won't let me boot
    it directly."
    Half the people I know using Macs are running Windows
    on it because they need Windows software....while they
    complain about what junk Windows is. ...I guess that's
    fine if your mother is willing to pay for it all.

    Apropos of that, did you see the new Mac Pro review in the
    NYT today? They have a new reviewer. (Good riddance to
    David Pogue. He always seemed like a corporate shill to
    me.) The new machine is $8,000, looks like a toy fire hydrant
    or coffee grinder perched on a lamp stand, and has no
    expandability. ...You'd better start telling your mother how
    good her cooking is. :)
    Mayayana, Dec 26, 2013
  7. RichA

    Guest Guest

    powerpc chips of that era were definitely faster and had a far better
    architecture than intel chips of time. there are *plenty* of
    comparisons, both benchmark and real world, that show this.

    also, when apple announced the intel transition, intel macs were often
    called macintel.
    just because you never heard it used doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

    it makes perfect sense. a windows system running on intel is wintel and
    many windows users refer to it as that. it's not an insult.

    trying to make it into something it's not just shows how much you want
    to bash.

    amd is not better at all. in fact, they're worse.

    some amd chips might be faster in specs, but specs aren't everything.
    they are not as power efficient, which is a *huge* drawback, especially
    in a laptop.

    apple could never have gone with amd because amd's road map was not
    where apple wanted to go and amd couldn't manufacture anywhere near the
    volume of chips apple needed.
    it's not apple propaganda whatsoever.

    you say below that you are delighted to list the evils of microsoft,
    yet when someone else does exactly that, you say their view is due to
    apple propaganda. can't have it both ways.

    microsoft's predatory business practices and monopoly abuse are well
    known and what spawned numerous lawsuits.
    no such thing as a clone? you're delusional.
    in other words, a clone.
    first you say no such thing as a clone then you say there are. call it
    whatever you want. it's a clone.
    it's not exactly the same as a hand built because a clone comes bundled
    with an os, including crapware which subsidizes part of its price, and
    a warranty. you don't get any of that with a home built system
    (although the lack of crapware is a plus). also, swappable parts is
    meaningless. it doesn't make the computer faster or better.

    the key is that the dells, acers and other clone makers of the world
    couldn't bundle something other than windows without paying a higher
    windows license for *every* system they built, whether or not it even
    shipped with windows.

    that made it not competitive to offer an alternative, so they didn't
    (with rare exception). it's part of what got microsoft in trouble.

    microsoft pulled similar shit with numerous school systems by demanding
    a windows license for every computer that *could* run windows,
    including all macs and linux systems. it didn't matter whether or not
    they actually were running windows.
    that's why apple doesn't bother with $300 macs. it's not worth the
    effort. their $300 computer is an ipad and is more capable than what
    sat on people's desks 10 years ago and it's selling so well that pc
    makers are blaming their earnings shortfalls on it.
    you want low prices but won't shop in a store that is what you call a
    discount store??

    i'm sure there was a lot more to your story about the faulty part.

    i've returned stuff to microcenter that *wasn't* faulty and they had no
    problem taking it back. they have a very reasonable return policy, and
    the line to return stuff is always long (at least every time i've been
    there). you don't even need to return all of the parts for them to take
    it back.

    the returned products often go on a shelf for people to buy at a
    discount because they've been opened and may not have all the parts.
    they used to have several tables of that stuff but they've scaled it
    back. there are definitely deals to be had there.
    exactly what i said they did!
    they can claim whatever they want. the problem is that tactic is part
    of why windows became as big as it was and part of why microsoft was
    sued for monopoly abuse.
    who said it did?

    the reason clone makers are having trouble is because people aren't
    buying as many computers anymore. what they have now is more powerful
    than they need and mobile devices are handling most of their day to day

    it's a post-pc era. mobile is the future.
    and it also incensed the clone makers who wanted to offer alternatives
    to customers who were asking for alternatives. they couldn't, at least
    not without a penalty.
    yet you never do, and whenever anyone else does, it's always because
    they are supposedly a fanboi or shill.

    despite all the evils you claim you can list, you still use windows and
    claim how much better it is than the alternatives.

    so when you say you are happy to list all the evils of microsoft, i
    call bullshit.
    apple users don't do that either and nobody is telling anyone to buy
    anything anyway.

    where do you come up with this shit? seriously, where?
    good luck using windows xp after microsoft ceases support for it in a
    few months.

    really, good luck. you will need it.

    the malware authors are going to have an absolute field day after
    microsoft stops supporting xp and ceases all security patches.

    you can be sure they have a list of exploits ready to be used, knowing
    full well that once they're in the wild they will never be fixed. those
    exploits will always exist, forever.
    waste what time?

    if you know how to use xp you know how to use win7. the differences are
    minor, and the advantages are huge.

    windows 8 is a bit different but it can be made to look like
    traditional windows.

    nothing like stagnation.
    you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

    macs can easily boot windows and they are also competitively priced.
    however, it's preferable to virtualize windows since it's a lot less

    as for windows being overpriced, that part is true. mac os x is free,
    previously $20, and windows is much higher, therefore windows can be
    considered overpriced, even for the oem version.
    they complain that windows is junk because it *is* junk.

    they run it because only because they *have* to because of microsoft's
    lock-in, not because they *want* to. maybe they work for a company that
    requires some custom windows software. or maybe they just don't want to
    take the time to learn something new.

    it also means that half of the people you know who have macs *aren't*
    running windows on it.

    and what does anyone's mother have to do with anything?
    you consider anyone that says something you disagree with to be a shill
    or a fanboi.

    pogue is a very good tech journalist, extremely talented (he was a
    broadway music director) and *very* funny. he has made a number of
    satirical music videos. he's also not a shill.

    molly wood is also a good tech journalist, although i'm more familiar
    with her on various podcasts than as a columnist. you'll probably like
    her since she frequently criticizes apple, and whenever she criticizes
    anything, she does so with passion.

    here is molly's rant on sopa:
    again with the mother nonsense?

    first of all, the mac pro is $3000 for the base model and even that is
    way more power than most people need.

    the model molly had was *not* a base model. it was an 8 core xeon
    processor (not a consumer cpu) with 64 gig memory, 1 terabyte ssd
    (*not* cheap) and *two* amd gpus.

    $8000 is a very good price for that configuration and you will *not* be
    able to match that price without compromising a lot of the specs.

    just the cpu *by itself* is around $2000 (i see a faster one listed for
    $2300 and a slower one for under $2k). amazon has a 1tb pci-e ssd card
    for $3700. using molly's price of $800 per graphics card (it's actually
    higher, but let's go with her numbers), you're now at $7300 and you
    *still* need to get a logic board (a bare cpu won't do much), 64 gig
    memory and a box with a power supply and proper ventilation to put all
    of it in along with a copy of windows and assorted bundled software
    (not crapware).

    when all's said and done, it'll be *more* than $8k and that's ignoring
    the time and effort it took to put it all together and get it to work
    properly. unless you work for free, that time adds to the price too.

    it's also expandable, just not internally. those who buy such systems
    are going to hook it up to an external raid or san. most people never
    used the slots in the older mac pros, so why offer them when they'll go

    the usual comments are it looks like a trash can or ashtray, and that's
    *from* mac users. i've not heard it called a coffee grinder or a fire
    hydrant. that's actually a lot more complimentary than a trash can. you
    should start using the more condescending names.

    it also won't be long until the clone makers copy the design. they
    always do.

    but what you're missing is that it packs all that power into a tiny
    package. it's portable. it can fit in a backpack or carry-on bag. it
    weights roughly as much as two macbook pros and it's shorter than an

    even if you could match its price (and you can't), there's no way in
    hell you could do it in the same size enclosure or one that runs as
    quiet as it does (12 db @ idle). who wants a big giant noisy box?

    it's not for everyone. there are those who need high end workstation
    class machines, but most people do not. it's a very specific market
    segment who needs that kind of power. most people are well served with
    a cheap computer, and even that is way more than they need if all
    they're doing is email and web surfing.
    Guest, Dec 26, 2013
  8. RichA

    Guest Guest

    it was a typo. i meant to say jobs but said apple by mistake. when you
    pointed it out i confirmed that it was a mistake.
    i'm not the one making a fuss here. you are.

    you're going on and on, bringing up legalities of saying apple instead
    of jobs, as if i intentionally said that to mislead.
    you seem to be under the impression that i intentionally said apple.
    no it isn't at all. that's *why* they're synonymous.
    nothing erroneous about it.

    i meant to say jobs and said apple instead. it was a typo. mistakes
    happen. i try to catch them before i post but this time one slipped by.

    you know what i meant, as did everyone else. once again, if that's the
    biggest mistake you can find, i'm doing just fine.

    let it go already.
    Guest, Dec 26, 2013
  9. RichA

    Guest Guest

    i already did.

    if you are going to claim what i said is bullshit, the burden is on you
    to prove it's wrong. not me.

    if you don't believe the proof i gave, call tim cook's office and ask
    his staff, although you will have to wait until next week since apple
    is closed this week.

    or, if you prefer, wait a few weeks for apple's next earnings call
    (mid- to late january), where they will almost certainly mention it

    but you won't do a thing. you'll just keep on pretending you know
    Guest, Dec 26, 2013
  10. RichA

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Eric Stevens, Dec 26, 2013
  11. RichA

    Guest Guest

    now they do.

    back in the 1990s, things were *very* different.
    Guest, Dec 26, 2013
  12. RichA

    Eric Stevens Guest

    A typo is a wrong letter or interchanged letter, or similar. The use
    of a correctly spelled wrong word is not a typo, no matter how often
    you try to clam that it is.
    Agreed that it was a mistake, but it was not a typo. I don't know of
    any name for it other than brain-fart or similar.
    The fuss is over whether or not it is a typo. I'm not continuing the
    fuss further.
    Thats why they fired him at the time concerned. He most definitely
    wasn't Apple then.
    Eric Stevens, Dec 26, 2013
  13. RichA

    Eric Stevens Guest

    I seem to recall they had to take the whole Microsoft package or
    nothing. They had to sell all their machines with MS loaded and
    selling even one machine with any other operating system was grounds
    for cancellation of their contract.
    Eric Stevens, Dec 26, 2013
  14. RichA

    Eric Stevens Guest

    There .........^ is a typo :)
    Eric Stevens, Dec 26, 2013
  15. RichA

    Guest Guest

    so now all your doing is nitpicking about what it's called?

    call it whatever you want. you were still able to figure out what was
    he co-founded the company and also brought it back from near bankruptcy.

    they are synonymous.
    Guest, Dec 27, 2013
  16. RichA

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Why do you keep doing this kind of thing? It doesn't matter that he
    cofounded the company. It doesn't matter that he later brought it back
    from near bankruptcy. At the time he founded NeXT he had been forced
    out of Apple. That's all that we were discussing and it's all that
    matters for the purpose of this present discussion.
    Eric Stevens, Dec 27, 2013
  17. RichA

    Guest Guest

    of course it matters.

    steve jobs and apple are synonymous. bill gates and microsoft are
    synonymous. henry ford and ford motor company are synonymous.

    it's just how it is.
    Guest, Dec 28, 2013
  18. RichA

    Eric Stevens Guest

    It matters not all to the point you were trying to make. And now you
    are trying to drag in Henry Ford!

    Words fail me, even if they never seem to fail you.

    Eric Stevens, Dec 28, 2013
  19. RichA

    David Taylor Guest

    On 27/12/2013 21:37, Eric Stevens wrote:
    I must have been mistaken, thinking that this was digital photography
    newsgroup! How about ignoring the off-topic trolls?
    David Taylor, Dec 28, 2013
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