Buying Adobe Elements?

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by David Hare-Scott, May 12, 2013.

  1. David Hare-Scott

    Eric Stevens Guest

    --- snip for brevity. ---

    It wouldn't work like that at all.

    In an outfit like Nikon which has been producing new product and
    writing new manuals for donkey's years, where manuals are concerned,
    there would be a corporate style manual. It would cover everyting from
    content, style of writing, page sizes, font, graphics, binding etc
    etc. All departments are likely to have input into the style manual,
    particularly the marketing department as this manual will shape the
    product documentation which the customer will see. This is all part of
    forming corporate image and branding. No doubt finished manuals would
    have to be checked for final approval before being released to the
    public.

    The way you have described (which I deleted) sounds more like the kind
    of thing which an unimaginative government bureacracy would do: all
    the agility of a pyramid.

    If your deleted view of how things might be done forms the basis of
    your rejection of the comments previously directed in your direction,
    then I can understand your reaction. But it is totally misguided.
     
    Eric Stevens, May 27, 2013
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  2. David Hare-Scott

    Tony Cooper Guest

    I'm pretty much out. What he doesn't want to acknowledge is
    "irrelevant". He thinks expressing an ill-formed opinion repeatedly
    is "substantiation". What he can't fathom gets a "No" reply. He
    doesn't understand that word/term definitions evolve and shape-change
    by culture. He may think "ideomatic" is an insult.
     
    Tony Cooper, May 28, 2013
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  3. David Hare-Scott

    Tony Cooper Guest

    Yes, that's what I thought too. I had to ask, because it seemed so
    strange of you to bring that up now, as if anyone has talked about
    whether or not they have any such control before. I certainly have not.[/QUOTE]

    I didn't bring it up.
     
    Tony Cooper, May 28, 2013
  4. David Hare-Scott

    Tony Cooper Guest

    An individual in the US who engages in business can file a (IRS)
    Schedule C deducting business expenses. Expenses can be incurred and
    deducted before revenue is attained. The pursuit of revenue is a
    legitimate activity. (I'm not sure what "T&L" is. Travel and
    lodging?)

    A depreciation schedule can be set up prior to establishing accounts
    or attaining revenue.

    The IRS, until an audit occurs, has no way of knowing if an individual
    using a Schedule C is really engaged in business. Most abusers of the
    system are "busted" by someone reporting then rather than by the IRS
    determining there is fraud. If a person reports someone for tax
    evasion, that person can participate in the monies recovered.
     
    Tony Cooper, May 28, 2013
  5. David Hare-Scott

    Sandman Guest

    --- snip for brevity. ---

    It wouldn't work like that at all.

    In an outfit like Nikon which has been producing new product and
    writing new manuals for donkey's years, where manuals are concerned,
    there would be a corporate style manual. It would cover everyting from
    content, style of writing, page sizes, font, graphics, binding etc
    etc. All departments are likely to have input into the style manual,
    particularly the marketing department as this manual will shape the
    product documentation which the customer will see.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly. I have said that from the beginning:

    Sandman <>
    <>

    "the only reason [Marketing] would ever ask to see it is to see if
    it follows the company's graphical guidelines, which they MAY be
    in charge of (which isn't a given)."
    You can't take that to the bank. Corporate image should, and in the
    cases of your average medium to large company, does extend to the
    owner's manual.

    Corporate branding and graphical guidelines aren't *marketing* though,
    even if the marketing department could be in charge of it. I.e. this
    paragraph that started this entire owner's manual talk:

    PeterN <>
    <519cca3d$0$10837$-secrets.com>

    "in many organizations even the owners manual has to be passed
    through marketing. Showing all of the super features"

    The marketing department adding content to the owner's manual to show
    off (market) the product for marketing purposes - this doesn't happen.
    My description was that there is nothing in my example that requires
    the use of a marketing department. If Nikon sees a need to discourage
    use of untested accessories with their cameras, the technical writers
    can do that for them. There would be no need to channel the entire
    manual through a content revision with another department because of
    that.
     
    Sandman, May 28, 2013
  6. David Hare-Scott

    Sandman Guest

    I didn't bring it up.[/QUOTE]

    My apologies, my bad. Sorry about that :)
     
    Sandman, May 28, 2013
  7. David Hare-Scott

    Sandman Guest

    Well, when you can't use reason and facts to support your argument,
    running away is a better choice than turning to insults, so you'll
    always have that :)

    Have a nice life!
     
    Sandman, May 28, 2013
  8. David Hare-Scott

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Exactly. I have said that from the beginning:

    Sandman <>
    <>[/QUOTE]

    In which, as below, you cast considerable doubt on whether or not the
    marketing group would have any input to technical manuals (presumably
    including content).
    That's quibbling. It should be clear to you from the context that I
    have never used 'marketing' in the narrow sense you now propose.
    Here is one of your denials given with no justification.

    The marketing department may or may not add content "to show off
    (market) the product for marketing purposes" but they will have the
    final say so as to whether or not such contents is to be added and the
    form it should take.
    That sounds just like a government bureacracy.
    This is a corporate marketing decision, not to be left to technical
    writers. This decision falls squarely into the responsibility of the
    marketing department.
    It almost certainly would go through all the major departments for a
    final check and approval.
     
    Eric Stevens, May 28, 2013
  9. David Hare-Scott

    Sandman Guest

    In which you cast considerable doubt on whether or not the
    marketing group would have any input to technical manuals (presumably
    including content).[/QUOTE]

    Yes, I am saying that marketing rarely, if ever, contribute with any
    content to the owner's manual. This obviously excludes "content" that
    is inheret in the company graphical guidelines, which the marketing
    department may or may not be in charge of.
    What justified claim am I denying? I mean, PeterN said X and I said Y.
    Neither of use justified it with anything but words - but for whatever
    reason, the lack of justification is only brought up in relation to my
    remark.

    To be frank, I'm unsure just as to how I *would* justify it. I mean, I
    have worked in the business for about 18 years so most of my claims
    come from experience, but apart from that, I don't know how to show it
    to you? What kind of justification are you looking for? I'll be happy
    to do my best to provide it! :)
    But rarely, if ever, does - is my claim. Both yours and mine is
    unjustified. Mine differs from yours in no way at all.
    This is false. The marketing department doesn't have "final say" on
    the content of the owner's manual.

    (And for clarity - that explicit claim was not justified either, just
    as your explicit claim wasn't).
    Ehm, ok. It's normal corporate behavior as well, so they have that in
    common, then.
    Actually, it's a legal and customer support decision, not a marketing
    decision. The reason that text is there is to cut down on customer
    support costs and eventual legal costs (when customer can't get third
    party accessory X to work, or when third party accessory fries the
    device)
    This is just illogical - There is nothing in the examples that suggest
    it was written by anyone but the technical writers that wrote the
    immediately preceding paragraph.
    Sorry, but no.
    When it comes to the owner's manual, the marketing department is not a
    "major" department, and neither is the sales department. Or
    accounting, or personell.
     
    Sandman, May 28, 2013
  10. David Hare-Scott

    David Taylor Guest

    On 27/05/2013 21:50, Alan Browne wrote:
    []
    It's starting to come across like that.
    So any manuals for the iPad containing the word "Apple" have these
    marketing materials?
     
    David Taylor, May 28, 2013
  11. David Hare-Scott

    Savageduck Guest

    Not that I see here, other than a reference to iTunes that is:
    < http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/ipad_user_guide.pdf >
     
    Savageduck, May 28, 2013
  12. David Hare-Scott

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Yet the iPad manual is very far from a bare technical guide. It's got
    marketing/design's paw prints all over it.
     
    Eric Stevens, May 28, 2013
  13. David Hare-Scott

    Sandman Guest

    Yet the iPad manual is very far from a bare technical guide. It's got
    marketing/design's paw prints all over it.[/QUOTE]

    For adherence to graphical guidelines and company image, yes. Not for
    marketing purposes (i.e. selling or promoting accessories or the device
    it is a manual for).

    PeterN <>
    <519cca3d$0$10837$-secrets.com>

    in many organizations even the owners manual has to be
    passed through marketing. Showing all of the super features
     
    Sandman, May 28, 2013
  14. David Hare-Scott

    Eric Stevens Guest

    Yes, I am saying that marketing rarely, if ever, contribute with any
    content to the owner's manual. This obviously excludes "content" that
    is inheret in the company graphical guidelines, which the marketing
    department may or may not be in charge of.[/QUOTE]

    'content' and 'input' are not the same. 'graphical guideline' are
    something else again.

    --- snip ---

    Can't be bothered with this endless non productive discussion. :-(
     
    Eric Stevens, May 28, 2013
  15. David Hare-Scott

    Sandman Guest

    'content' and 'input' are not the same. 'graphical guideline' are
    something else again.[/QUOTE]

    Very good, captain obvious. :)
    Indeed.
     
    Sandman, May 28, 2013
  16. David Hare-Scott

    J. Clarke Guest

    For adherence to graphical guidelines and company image, yes. Not for
    marketing purposes (i.e. selling or promoting accessories or the device
    it is a manual for).

    PeterN <>
    <519cca3d$0$10837$-secrets.com>

    in many organizations even the owners manual has to be
    passed through marketing. Showing all of the super features[/QUOTE]

    Sandman, I'm curious, are you a senior executive in the marketing
    department of a major Japanese manufacturer of photo equipment? If not
    then how is it that you speak so authoritatively about their internal
    processes?
     
    J. Clarke, May 28, 2013
  17. David Hare-Scott

    Sandman Guest

    Sandman, I'm curious, are you a senior executive in the marketing
    department of a major Japanese manufacturer of photo equipment?[/QUOTE]

    Thank you for asking! No, I am a marketing consultant and run my own
    company. I work mainly with branding, design and corporate image and
    deal with marketing departments almost on a daily basis. Most of
    customers are Swedish, but some have been international as well. They
    differ very little, I might add :)

    And as you (may) have noted, my comments have been general, with the
    Nikon manual merely illustrating as an example, not the limits of the
    scope of my claims.
    Why are you asking me this question, and not PeterN? Did you feel his
    explicit and unsupported claim (that incidentally started this) wasn't
    as authoritative as my reply?
     
    Sandman, May 28, 2013
  18. David Hare-Scott

    Tony Cooper Guest

    Not, by any stretch of the imagination can he be. He's someone who
    has evidently worked with some company or companies with Marketing
    departments, but never *in* one of those company's Marketing
    Department. He's making assumptions of what they do without the
    foggiest idea of what really goes on.

    He's like someone who has been in an airplane as a passenger in Coach
    and telling us how the pilot flies the airplane.
     
    Tony Cooper, May 28, 2013
  19. David Hare-Scott

    Eric Stevens Guest

    For adherence to graphical guidelines and company image, yes. Not for
    marketing purposes (i.e. selling or promoting accessories or the device
    it is a manual for).[/QUOTE]

    You are fixated on the idea that the marketing function is the same as
    the sales function. That's the only reason I can see that you won't
    recognise the presence of marketing if it's not directly trying to
    sell something.
     
    Eric Stevens, May 28, 2013
  20. David Hare-Scott

    Sandman Guest

    You are fixated on the idea that the marketing function is the same as
    the sales function.
    Incorrect.

    That's the only reason I can see that you won't recognise the
    presence of marketing if it's not directly trying to sell
    something.[/QUOTE]

    How do you reconcile that conclusion with this quote from me as a
    response to PeterN's first claim:

    Sandman <>
    <>

    the only reason they would ever ask to see it is to see if
    it follows the company's graphical guidelines, which they
    MAY be in charge of (which isn't a given).

    I can't see how anyone can read that and come away with the conclusion
    that I can't see the presence of marketing if it's not directly trying
    to sell something. The quote is in direct opposition to that.

    In fact, the paragraph you *just replied to* is in direct opposition
    of that, where I clearly say that marketing CAN be involved for
    reasons where they're not trying to sell something.

    You have continuously misrepresented my claims and/or my position on
    the borderline of outright lying about it. Are *you* a troll? Should I
    ignore you?
     
    Sandman, May 28, 2013
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