C41 rotary development

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by news.c2i.net, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. news.c2i.net

    news.c2i.net Guest

    I hav bought some NOVA ProSpeed C41 chemistry, to develop a few films. The
    enclosed leaflet gives only development times for intermittenet agitation
    (5sec evvery 30 sec.), but I intend to use a JOBO CPE rotary developing
    apparatus. Does anybody know how much the developing times should be reduced

    Regards John Dancke
    news.c2i.net, Jun 3, 2008
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  2. news.c2i.net

    Ken Hart Guest

    I know this is going to start a battle, but....

    I used to use intermittant agitation for C41 developing, 5sec.30seconds. Now
    I use a "Uniroller" (print tube rollar base) for constant agitation. I see
    no real difference between the two methods. Caveat: I did not conduct any
    scientific testing; I'm just basing this on how the finished prints look,
    and the printing times.

    I would add that when I first started doing c41, I had problems with
    'uniformity'-- there would be light and dark areas where the image should be
    solid in tone and color. At the recommendation of someone on one of these
    groups (sorry! don't remember who), I started using a two minute presoak
    with agitation at the developing temperature. This cured the problem.
    Ken Hart, Jun 3, 2008
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  3. What time do they recommend for the CD?

    I'd run a first test with a less important film and the times indicated
    for your product. Do note that only the CD is time-critical. BL and FX
    (or BX in a combined solution) have minimum times which can safely be
    lengthened by as much as 100 %.

    Ralf R. Radermacher, Jun 4, 2008
  4. news.c2i.net

    news.c2i.net Guest

    The recomende 3 min and 15 sec. at 38 degress Celcius.
    In B/W work it is often recomended shortening the development time 15%,
    when using Continuos development. Even from my limited experience I can see
    that this is not always good advice.

    Thank you all for your help so far.

    John Dancke
    news.c2i.net, Jun 4, 2008
  5. This is exactly the time and temperature used with all other chemicals
    intended for rotary development. Just go ahead.

    Ralf R. Radermacher, Jun 4, 2008
  6. news.c2i.net

    news.c2i.net Guest

    We'll give it a try then. Thanks a lot.

    John M. Dancke
    news.c2i.net, Jun 4, 2008
  7. When the development time is only a little over 3 minutes, you have to
    take agitation seriously. I've done C41 in a Jobo processor (3:15 at
    degrees, continuous agitation) and in a daylight tank. Same time,
    same temperature, agitate 5 seconds every 15 seconds. It turned
    out fine. I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble, but that's another
    matter... :)

    Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Non sequitur. Your ACKS are
    Grid: CN89mg uncoordinated."
    ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - Nomad the Network Engineer
    laura halliday, Jun 4, 2008
  8. news.c2i.net

    news.c2i.net Guest

    Hm. Worth the trouble ? Normally I would say not. I usually get my film
    (120) developed by a local photographer/store, but recently i got som well
    defined stripes along the edge of the film, turning out darker on the print.
    He does not not notice it on his own films, but on my landscapes with an
    even sky across the frame, things are easy to see. So I thougt I would try
    myself, just for the sake of the argument.

    John Dancke
    news.c2i.net, Jun 4, 2008
  9. news.c2i.net

    Ken Hart Guest

    Exactly the reason I started doing my own color processing. The local places
    get so little 120 size film that their roller transport processor will
    accumulate 'trash' on the rollers outside the 35mm width. (If you constantly
    run 35mm film through the processor, the film will keep the rollers clean
    and polished for a 35mm width path down the center. If you then put a roll
    of 120 through, it will pick up the stuff that the 35mm film has pushed

    Color processing is not difficult: C-41 film processing just requires
    temperature control. I put together a water bath using cast-off parts from
    an old color processor machine (thormostat, heater and tank). Others have
    recommended using an aquarium heater and a picnic cooler. And the trick to
    RA-4 printing is to get the density right, then get the color right.
    Ken Hart, Jun 4, 2008
  10. Which sounds like a good argument for an alternative solution: find a
    place that regularly processes 120. ('Round heah (San Francisco Bay
    Area) there probably are a couple, but they're probably not easy to find.)
    David Nebenzahl, Jun 4, 2008
  11. Sounds like what happened yesterday when I tried to buy a Holga. There
    is one store in town that has the model "N" for 270 NIS. For those that
    don't care, which is probably most of the world, 3.3 NIS equal 1 dollar.

    That $81 in "American" money. Freestyle has them for $25. Due to the local
    taxes, one would expect to pay around 100 NIS ($33) for one, but not here.

    Since the cost of shipping from Freestyle (they only ship International
    shipments FEDEX) is so high, it's almost worth it.

    So I go into the store with the intention of looking at the camera seriously.

    The salesman tells me not to buy it because it uses "nonstandard" film, and
    it will cost a lot of money and be almost impossible to get processed. The
    concept that I was going to use it for black and white film and develop the
    prints myself (which is why I wanted the 6x6 negative), was lost on him.

    After looking around, they are the only store left in town that sells fresh
    developer and paper, but I think there is one other store that sells 120 film.

    Oh well.

    I think what I am going to do is use one of the similar 35mm cameras (someone
    gave me two of them) and play around with it that way. I was thinking of
    using tri-x or similar film and developing it with Rodinal 1:100, so the
    highlights won't burn out.

    If anyone has suggestions for film and developing with HC-110 I would
    appreciate it, the store had several bottles of it, and they still were
    yellow (it's the euro concentrate, not the U.S. syrup).

    I also have some 1990 dated Tri-X left (it came in a free bulk loader),
    and I may use that just to add to the effect. :)

    BTW, if anyone has a 120 camera of any kind, or small darkroom stuff
    (e.g enlarging lenses, 23CII accessories, safelights, Paterson reels),
    etc and wants to get rid of it (give it away) and happens to live near
    Philly, I have some relatives comming here in a week with a little room
    in their suitcase.

    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jun 4, 2008
  12. [snip rest of tale of woe]

    You know, Geoff, every time I read your postings, it's hard not to
    visualize Israel as some kind of benighted third-world country. What's
    UP with your economy? Why is it so hard to get basic photographic
    supplies? All this stuff seems so strange for what's supposedly a
    European-style first-world country.
    David Nebenzahl, Jun 4, 2008
  13. If I was anywhere near Philly I'd give your rels my "Diana" camera,
    which is even crappier than a Holga (blurry images *plus* light leaks).

    Surely they can find something for sale at a photo store there cheap ...
    David Nebenzahl, Jun 4, 2008
  14. It's very simple, at one time it was a socialist economy. So up until
    the late 1990's cameras (and film, etc) were taxed 140%. Then digital
    cameras became popular and they were taxed as if they were computers
    at VAT only (15.5%). So regular cameras and film were reduced to 28%
    but there is NO DEMAND. No one could afford the high taxes, so there
    are almost no real cameras here from before 1995 or so, except those
    brought in by immegrants as their one tax free camera.

    The first all digital camera store opened around 2002. Now you can not
    buy a new film camera except for a disposable anywhere, and the stores
    that used to take cameras on consignment, or buy used ones for resale
    won't bother to take them at all.

    The only reason there is any film sold at all here is there is an
    art school which considers itself "world class" and requires film for
    some of it's photography courses.

    Now people don't buy film cameras at all, they buy digital cameras if
    they buy one that is not in their cell phone. Israel has the one of the
    highest "market penetration"(s) of any country in the world in cell phones.
    It also has a similar position in broadband Internet, with an aDSL connection
    or cable modem costing less than dial up.

    I just dropped a roll of film off to be developed at the local mall, and the
    store still sells and devlops film, but not cameras. They sell digital cameras,
    some film (to tourists), and disposable cameras (to tourists again), but
    almost of the locals use digital cameras.

    They have two photo kisoks for developing you own pictures from a memory card.
    The prints I got from the film were obviously scanned and printed digitally,
    not chemically.

    The other places in the mall that developed film, were similar, but I'm
    sure at least one was digital only.

    I'm very sorry to say this, but to the man on the Israeli street, film is dead.

    In my last post I mentioned someone gave me two 35mm fixed focus cameras. She
    advertised them on a popular mailing list (with about 15,000 subscribers) and
    I was the only one who replied. She had listed them as "film cameras" with
    NO details.

    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jun 4, 2008
  15. I think that's the norm everywhere now (Fuji Frontier, etc.).
    David Nebenzahl, Jun 4, 2008
  16. news.c2i.net

    Ken Hart Guest

    The Nits are in full bloom, so I thought I'd pick one!

    While I can't speak specifically about Mr. Mendelson's prints, the most
    common process at the one-hour places 'round these parts, is chemical
    processing of the negatives (C-41), scanning the negatives and 'light-jet'
    printing them on standard RA-4 process photo paper, so they would be
    "printed digitally" (as opposed to optical printing with a lens), and
    processed chemically.

    Of course Mr. Mendelson's prints may have been nowhere near RA-4 chemistry.
    If he would care to have a round-trip airline ticket waiting for me at
    Harrisburg Int'l Airport later this month, I'd be glad to come over and take
    a look at the prints!
    Ken Hart, Jun 4, 2008
  17. David,

    contact me privately, maybe I can arrange something.

    Thanks, Geoff.
    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jun 5, 2008
  18. My experience is that C-41 development is easy, but prints from
    the resulting negatives are difficult to get right. It may very well
    be my technique, but I find it difficult to get reproducible exposure
    and/or colour balance.

    If I want to do colour I usually shoot reversal film, do my own
    E-6 processing (which is dead easy), then print on Ilfochrome.
    Ilfochrome prints are obscenely expensive, but idiot-proof.

    Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Non sequitur. Your ACKS are
    Grid: CN89mg uncoordinated."
    ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - Nomad the Network Engineer
    laura halliday, Jun 5, 2008
  19. news.c2i.net

    Ken Hart Guest

    First, keep a supply of Sharpie brand (or other waterproof/permanent marker)
    markers in the darkroom. Learn to keep notes,

    My first print of a neg will be a test print: on a half or quarter sheet of
    paper, I cover all but 1/3 of it, and make an exposure, move the covering so
    that 2/3 is uncovered and make the same exposure, uncover the whole paper
    and expose again. I now have a print with exposures of X, 2X, and 3X.
    Process and dry. Determine which section is the proper density, and fold the
    print so that only that section is showing. Use the Kodak viewing filters to
    determine what adjustment(s) must be made to the filter pack. When using the
    viewing filters, do not "stare" at the print; flip the filter into view,
    then out of view, several times. If you stare at the print with the filter,
    your eyes/brain will make the color correction for you. Write on the test
    print the current filter pack and exposure, and what you are changing the
    filter pack to, for example: "40Y60M :10s f/8 ---> 45Y 65M :12s f/8". If
    your second test print is worse than the first one, do not try to correct
    it, go back to the first one and make your corrections.

    Make a poster of the color wheel to remind you which direction you need to
    go: You might consider putting together a collection of prints all a certain
    amount off: a row of prints that are off by 5 units C, M, Y, R, G, B, 10
    units, and 20 units. Arrange these prints in a wheel so that you can compare
    your test print to one of them.

    The important thing is to NOT try to correct both density and color at the
    same time. Get density right first and then go for the color. (Density is
    the darkness of the print. Too dense=too dark, not dense enough=too light)

    (Actually, the problem you are having with color balance is that you use an
    extra letter in the word-- get rid of the "u" in color, and it will be
    easier. Sorry, couldn't resist-- I'll apologiZe now!)
    Ken Hart, Jun 5, 2008
  20. Shrug. My problem is not basic darkroom competence. It's the fact
    that even if I print exactly the same negative with exactly the same
    exposure, colour filters, processing, etc., I rarely get the same

    Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Non sequitur. Your ACKS are
    Grid: CN89mg uncoordinated."
    ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - Nomad the Network Engineer
    laura halliday, Jun 6, 2008
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