Can *any* PC play these videos smoothly?

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by Peter, Jul 30, 2011.

  1. Peter

    Frank Guest

    Okay, then humour me, try this one. It's available in 240p, 360p,
    480p, 720p, and 1080p forms. Try the 1080p version and see if it will
    play smoothly.

    Alex Clare - Relax My Beloved.mov
    Uploaded by JulietTLiu on Mar 17, 2011
    Music video submitted to the Genero.tv competition.


    You should grab a local copy of each of the five versions of this
    video and make a note of the actual frame sizes and datarates used in
    each one, and then use those numbers as a guideline for your own
    encoding efforts.
    That was true a number of years ago, but no longer. AFAIK, virtually
    everything is now encoded into MPEG-4 AVC/AAC in an MPEG-4 .mp4
    wrapper. This works because Adobe updated its Flash player Microsoft
    ActiveX Control and Netscape plug-in several years ago to add support
    for MPEG-4 AVC/AAC .mp4 files.

    But note that the Adobe Flash Player will play such MPEG-4 AVC/AAC
    files even if they have an old-style .flv file extension. What this
    means is that you shouldn't trust the file extension to accurately
    indicate the actual contents of the file, or even the file wrapper for
    that matter.
    Well, I've never had a problem uploading to YouTube. Of course that's
    probably because I've never uploaded anything to YouTube. :)
    It isn't necessarily your NLE that will provide the best output for
    multimedia playback purposes, especially given that most NLEs are sort
    of camcorder-format centric - such as the Sony XDCAM EX format that
    you mentioned in another post.
    Jan Ozer, in the following article, preferred Handbrake.

    H.264 Encoding: Four Free (or Cheap) Encoders Compared on
    Onlinevideo.net - Online Video Strategies, Platforms, News, and Tips
    http://www.onlinevideo.net/2011/07/h-264-encoding-four-free-or-cheap-encoders-compared/

    Play around with the "Avg Bitrate (kbps)" setting until you get
    something that works well with the frame size that you're using.
     
    Frank, Jul 31, 2011
    #21
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  2. Peter

    Peter Guest

    OK but I still need to find a way to get data out of Vegas for onward
    processing.

    An alternative is to just use one of the Vegas output options, but I
    doubt any of them is right for the "Iphone generation".
    I hope to not outgrow the G10 for a long time :) The quality is
    amazing, and I can carry it.
     
    Peter, Jul 31, 2011
    #22
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  3. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Plays fine. No breakup in moving scenes at all. I wouldn't say it is
    the smoothest movie but it may be the source material.
    OK, will try. Currently I have it set to Constant Quality RF:20.
    Should I go to Avg Bitrate and set e.g. 5000 kbps?
     
    Peter, Jul 31, 2011
    #23
  4. Peter

    Frank Guest

    I don't want to waste your time, but maybe try this:

    Decimate the frame size coming out of Vegas to quarter-frame
    progressive and render with a lossless video codec such as Lagarith
    and use 2/16/48 LPCM audio. Then feed that into HandBrake. Try a
    bitrate of perhaps 1500 kbps for starters and see how that looks.

    Also, as I had suggested, save those YouTube music videos to your
    local system and examine them to see what datarate is used for each of
    the different frame sizes.
    Well, you need to ask yourself what's the target audience? Do you want
    to produce specific files for the iPhone? Or are the files for general
    Web use?
    You can carry an F3, too, just not in your pocket! :)
     
    Frank, Jul 31, 2011
    #24
  5. Peter

    Frank Guest

    The few times that I've used HandBrake, I always used the Avg Bitrate
    setting because I wanted total control over that parameter, but 5000
    kbps second is way too high, IMO.
     
    Frank, Jul 31, 2011
    #25
  6. Peter

    Smarty Guest

    Sorry to hear that....... I sincerely hope things turn around for you.
    The high frequency hearing losses are no doubt present and this aspect
    of current mp3 content is truly something I miss hearing. The "sizzle"
    of cymbals and the delicate overtones of most instruments are muted or
    lost entirely in my perception.

    On the other hand, the dynamics and air and spaciousness of mp3 has also
    been compromised in ways which exploit psychoacoustic trickery,
    ostensibly in a way that the ear and brain cannot perceive. Yet the
    direct comparison still reveals a lot of spatial and other acoustic
    content which the original content possesses and the mp3 content lacks.
    I get it is probably intuitive that you can't compress high quality
    audio to 128 Kb/sec or 256 Kb/sec and expect it to be undetectable in a
    direct comparison to the original content.
    Yup! Thankfully the brand name drug Mycoxaflopin has gone generic, and
    the generic drug bonealot hydrochloride is affordable with my Medicare
    co-pay....

    Aaaah. The exchanges with Ken taught me a lot about h.264 tools and
    techniques. He was always several steps ahead of me and was a true
    'guiding light' in these matters. The h.264 community was extremely
    small at that time 5 or more years ago.

    Once again Frank, my sincere wishes for all to resolve for you, whatever
    the situation may be.
     
    Smarty, Jul 31, 2011
    #26
  7. This is a good "undisclosed" reason for changing formats - but to
    prevent this with HDV, I always recorded 10-15 seconds of tape
    with my hand over the lens (or with the cap on) at the end of
    a shooting session, and noted the black footage counter for it
    in the tape log after shooting. Easy, but now irrelevant for you.
    Now, instead, we deal with the "j o y s" of dealing with playing
    and editing AVCHD. We both have our different reasons for doing
    it, but a relative "pain" it still is...
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Jul 31, 2011
    #27
  8. Sounds much more possible, but it involves a change in my
    MB (not too expensive) and RAM (cheap) - but still roughly
    $450-$500. I will think about it... (but I would hate to
    have yet another disappointment!).
    Cain't go fer da fripperies - cheeps/practicality over all! ;-)
    I knew that...! 8^)
    It's appreciated.

    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Jul 31, 2011
    #28
  9. See "Frank's" post below, but you do know that after you
    choose a file format type in Vegas to export in, you can
    hit the "Custom" button and change things like data rate
    for the export file (and you can name the new preset for
    future use - I prefer to prefix it with the word "Custom"
    and include its characteristics so I know it did not come
    as one of the standard options that came with the program)?
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Jul 31, 2011
    #29
  10. Peter

    Peter Guest

    I don't see anything that appears to be lossless in Vegas.

    The only apparently lossless output option was in Premiere Elements
    which was the DV output, but that was for PAL/NTSC DV.
    How do you save Youtube videos?
    It's a good question.

    In the further past, I was producing very small videos e.g. 320x240 or
    slightly bigger. That was partly because the "bullet" cameras were
    crap and anything bigger was just a waste of time.

    Those cameras were mechanically convenient but even the best ones were
    crap in IQ.

    Once I gave up on those and moved to camcorders, the results got a lot
    better but then the videos obviously got a lot bigger.

    Also my website is on a slow (ADSL) server so I have been putting any
    videos in my ISP's free webspace which is 1GB but the file size is
    limited to 50MB. This is not unusual over here, obviously to stop
    people simply hosting a high volume website in there, sharing CD ISO
    images, etc.

    Now I have a new arrangement for a fast webspace so can go bigger but
    again it is no use hosting a 500MB video file because almost nobody
    over here has a downlink of more than a few mbits/sec so a say 15
    minute video which takes up say 3GB is going to be wasted by an order
    of magnitude.

    ISTM that the most general approach will be a bitrate of 1mbit/sec.
    The video I uploaded to the gotdns URL which has "1mbps" in the
    filename is actually very good and I cannot see any degradation from
    the "2mbps" or "5mbps" versions of it.

    All three files appear identical on the Ipad, except that
    unsuprisingly the 5mbps one stutters because the WIFI can barely keep
    up. This is going to be the case for most people in Europe.

    So 1mbps is the way to go.

    Also I cannot see any difference between the Iphone4 and Ipad presets,
    which in any case deliver the same size video on the Ipad. The file
    jetprop-1920x1080x50i-via-handbrake-h264-slower-deinterlace-ipad-preset-1024x576.m4v
    plays just fine, though the average bitrate is unknown because I used
    the default setting in Handbrake.

    But the biggest learning experience for me has been this:

    The 1mbps video is 4MB whereas its original ex-G10 file was 81MB...

    So two things are likely:

    1. The output format coming out of Vegas, on the way to Handbrake,
    barely matters, providing it is something "big" like full HD, 50i. The
    bigger the better.

    2. The quality setting of the camcorder likely also doesn't matter
    much. In earlier experiments, XP+, FXP or MXP generated almost
    identical videos, with only the slightest difference apparent between
    XP+ and MXP on moving scenes and scenes with lots of detail (text,
    bricks). But I have 96GB of total flash in the G10 so can record MXP
    always... unless Vegas falls over with massive files.

    Handbrake is obviously really excellent, to deliver such a result with
    a 80x compression. OK, the end is not HD size frame but still...

    So I think I will go for the Iphone4 preset, 1mbps, for everything.
     
    Peter, Jul 31, 2011
    #30
  11. [...]
    8^), 8^), 8^) !!!

    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Jul 31, 2011
    #31
  12. Peter

    Smarty Guest

    Thank goodness for Mycoxaflopin, a miracle of modern medicine..... I
    have to keep Mrs. Smarty happy. It also prevents me from rolling out of
    bed in the middle of the night....... 8^), 8^), 8^) !!!
     
    Smarty, Jul 31, 2011
    #32
  13. Peter

    Frank Guest

    If you have the disk space, you should see an uncompressed 8-bit RGB
    ..avi option, with no alpha channel. That's lossless.

    Or do as I suggested and try some lossless codecs such as HuffYUV or
    Lagarith, both of which you will have to download and install on your
    system (they don't come with Vegas or any other program).

    If you use a lossless codec such as HuffYUV or Lagarith, in
    conjunction with 2/16/48 LPCM audio, you'll not lose any quality. Then
    feed that .avi file into HandBrake or whatever MPEG-4 AVC/AAC encoder
    you're using.
    DV isn't lossless; it's heavily lossy compressed, and is really only
    intended for standard definition, such as that produced by
    DV/DVCAM/DVCPRO camcorders.
    I'm sorry, but that's too complex a question to answer in a quick
    newsgroup post, and it's browser-specific, but I can tell you that
    there are add-ons for Firefox out there that work. Also, you can very
    easily do it by hand (manually) if you're browsing with Opera. I do it
    with Opera all the time and it works like a charm. No need for
    add-ons, although they can be convenient, but I don't need any more
    software to maintain, cause incompatibilities, create additional
    security exposures, etc.
    That's why I asked it, sir. :)
    Yes, 1 Mbps should probably be the maximum datarate that you'll want
    to use, but do decimate to quarter-frame - or even 1280 by 720.
    It does matter. You've giving the encoder more information with which
    to work. That's why needless transcoding prior to the final output
    step should be avoided.
    Again, I would suggest that the quality of the original footage does
    make a difference, even if only some of us are going to notice it. :)
    HandBrake is a nice piece of software, but please remember that it's
    just a GUI frontend for a bunch of CLI apps and that it's those CLI
    apps that are actually doing all of the work.
    Okay.
     
    Frank, Jul 31, 2011
    #33
  14. Peter

    Frank Guest

    They might, although it's unlikely, as it is beyond my control. I'll
    give it another 30 days.
    If you have a choice, try high bitrate MPEG-4 AAC-LC instead of MPEG
    Layer III (at any bitrate).
    Wait a minute. My taxes are now going to help pay for your... ?!?!?!
    I was doing it back then, but probably didn't have the time to post
    about it.
    Thank you!
     
    Frank, Jul 31, 2011
    #34
  15. Peter

    Frank Guest

    I don't think that you would be disappointed.
    You know, that may just well be the most intelligent and
    well-thought-out comment that I've seen posted in a newsgroup in a
    very long time (including my own posts, naturally). :)
    Okay, just wanted to be clear about that.
    Anytime, as long as I have the time.
     
    Frank, Aug 1, 2011
    #35
  16.  
    David Ruether, Aug 1, 2011
    #36
  17. Peter

    Justin Guest

    Hi Pete, my MacBook pro plays all of your files fine. I'm running Snow
    Leopard 10.6.8, and I used VLC, mplayeyOSX extended (1410), and even
    Quicktime player on all but the m2t since I don't think Quicktime
    (Apple's default player) can play those.
    My Macbook Pro is a 15.4" late 2009, 2.66Ghz C2D with 4GB or RAM.

    Nice countryside by the way. Looks like a good vacation spot!
    (I'm int he US, by the way, I wish I could get a camcorder that could do
    24fps natively like you PAL zone people have)
     
    Justin, Aug 2, 2011
    #37
  18. Peter

    ushere Guest

    my i7 plays all smoothly.....

    (PAL is 25fps)
     
    ushere, Aug 2, 2011
    #38
  19. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Justin (and others), thank you for this input.

    I strongly suspect that the bad loss of detail in motion scenes is the
    video card present in both PCs I have here, despite both being
    relatively "high end".

    Not sure what I can do to prove it though, short of getting a $500
    video card with a massive heatsink+fan :)

    Getting a video card with HDMI output is not going to help, is it? The
    stuff is passing through the same video processor.

    And your Macbook is just a laptop!

    I don't think there is anything much I can do about it apart from
    avoiding rapid camera motion which is obviously a good idea anyway. I
    put more videos here

    http://peter2000.gotdns.com/jetprop

    and it looks like the 1mbps "Iphone4" final output is the way to go.

    Yes the countryside around here is nice. Expensive to buy a house here
    though :)

    The Canon Legria G10 cam I have (a European version I am sure) does
    50i or 25p. I mistakenly thought it had a 24p option.
     
    Peter, Aug 2, 2011
    #39
  20. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Update:

    I have norrowed it down to using the only available "AVI" output
    option which is 1920x1080 50i.

    There is no 25p option in Vegas under AVI. 25p does exist elsewhere
    e.g. WMV at "HD 1080 25P" which they describe at 6.7mbps and OK for a
    3GHz+ PC.

    Rendering the jetprop1.mts video to AVI 1920x1080 50i runs very
    quickly indeed, no doubt because Vegas is not deinterlacing etc.

    The resulting video is 2GB! That's 80MB original expanded to 2GB. But
    it plays well in VLC, with much less judder in moving scenes, which
    instead show heavy interlacing artefacts instead, which I think looks
    a lot better.

    Handbrake processed it fast too, though it is always plenty fast
    enough anyway. The result is 4MB and almost exactly the same size as
    previous 1mpbs/Iphone4 versions of that clip. I have just uploaded
    that file to the "jetprop" directory. I think this one looks the best,
    with minimal breakup.
     
    Peter, Aug 2, 2011
    #40
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