Canon 20D, final verdict?

Discussion in 'Canon' started by Bill Crocker, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. Bill Crocker

    Bill Crocker Guest

    I've been considering the purchase of a Canon 20D. Have all the problems
    settled down, and been resolved through updated firmware?

    Bill Crocker
    Bill Crocker, Mar 25, 2005
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  2. Bill Crocker

    Eric Gill Guest

    If you're in the Houston pro photography market, buy something else,
    Of course not.

    Show me a perfect camera and I'll show you opium dreams.

    There is, however, nothing that can touch it in the price range, and that's
    been true since the day it was released.
    Eric Gill, Mar 25, 2005
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  3. Bill Crocker

    Si Guest

    It appears not Bill....

    I'm going to wait until Nikon bring out something to replace the D100 - and
    no, before you all flame me, I don't consider the D70 to be the D100
    replacement - it's a 300D competitor.

    Si, Mar 25, 2005
  4. Bill Crocker

    Si Guest

    I've changed my mind after handling a colleague's D2H...I don't like the
    handling at all...

    So, rather than spend a grand plus on a 20D and grip, I'm going to be rash
    and get a 1D Mk II

    Si, Mar 25, 2005
  5. I got mine about 10 days ago, and it came with firmware 1.1.0. It got upset
    for the first (and so far only) time yesterday, flashing Err99 at me. I
    took out the battery and put it back in and it was happy again.

    I'm a software engineer by trade and I've worked on embedded systems. The
    software (and custom hardware) inside a device like a DSLR is going to be
    incredibly complex, and therefore unlikely to be bug free. I've a feeling
    that Canon pushed the product out before the software guys were really
    ready. I've been there myself.

    I suspect most of the issues have now been resolved. I'd certainly recommend
    the camera to anyone. Dodgy firmware is no longer a reason to hold off
    buying one if you want one.
    Derek Fountain, Mar 26, 2005
  6. Bill Crocker

    JPS Guest

    In message <AgU0e.1342$>,
    Fortunately, the biggest real problem of the 20D (for me), is the noise
    banding in dark shadow areas, which is addressable in conversion
    software. RSE supposedly gets rid of it pretty well with its noise
    reduction, but I don't think it is attacking the root of the problem,
    which is that every line of RAW data is slightly offset from its
    neighbors in the readout bias, but all current converters use a single
    value to unbias it, causing some RAW lines to be slightly brighter or
    darker than others, making the noise more intense in some lines than
    others, and for red and blue values especially, the noise inconsistency
    is propagated to neighboring lines.

    Well, the other thing is that the shutter sounds like a mousetrap. I
    doubt that will ever be fixed. My 10D sounds like a P&S compared to my
    JPS, Mar 26, 2005
  7. Bill Crocker

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    It depends on your threshold for complaint. The banding issue is
    nothing short of pathetic, IMO. There is no excuse for Canon letting
    the camera out of the gates without at least addressing blackpoint
    line-by-line in its own software. It gives me the feeling that the
    company is a bunch of disconnected departments, and the the part that
    makes the excellent sensor has never explained to the part that makes
    the readout circuitry or the JPEG-writing firmware that one single
    blackpoint value does not work well for the entire image.
    JPS, Mar 26, 2005
  8. Bill Crocker

    JPS Guest

    In message <z451e.4929$>,
    Not at all. This is not noise; it is *modulation* of the noise, caused
    by the lack of an insanely simple arithmetic adjustment that needs to be
    applied on a line-by-line basis. I've seen the solution in action,
    already, in a doctored version of DCRAW. It is not a sensor problem,
    per se. It is a hardware problem reading the RAW data off the sensor,
    with a workable software solution. The solution is as simple as adding
    1 to all the RAW values on line 3, subtracting 3 from all RAW values on
    line 7, etc. It's really that simple, but it got by Canon completely.

    The sensors in these cameras are much better than what the camera's
    JPEGs and external RAW conversions are currently churning out. Nothing
    draws one's attention more to noise than simple geometric modulations of
    it. The random noise of the sensor, when properly read, is only strong
    when the image is viewed at magnification. The banding patterns do
    *not* disappear with minor downsampling.
    JPS, Mar 26, 2005
  9. Bill Crocker

    Rob Davison Guest

    Any chance of a link to this?

    Rob Davison, Mar 26, 2005
  10. Bill Crocker

    Si Guest

    I'd love a 1Ds Mark II, but UK price for the 1D Mark II is around £2700,
    whereas it's another 3 grand for the 's'...

    That's some chunk of cash.

    Si, Mar 26, 2005
  11. Bill Crocker

    JPS Guest

    JPS, Mar 26, 2005
  12. Bill Crocker

    C Wright Guest

    OK, would someone please tell me how to demonstrate the banding issue on my
    Canon 20D? I am not one to say it does not exist because I have not seen
    it; if others have seen it I will take their word for it. However, in nearly
    1000 images so far on my 20D I have not yet seen it so I would like to
    purposely set up some shots under conditions under which I will see the
    banding. First, what flash settings will I need to use to see the banding?
    And, of even greater interest to me is others saying that a non flash
    banding problem exists. I have lots of high ISO images, including some at
    1600 and have not seen banding. So, second, what non-flash settings will I
    need to use to see the banding?
    C Wright, Mar 26, 2005
  13. Bill Crocker

    Rob Davison Guest

    Rob Davison, Mar 26, 2005
  14. Bill Crocker

    Stacey Guest

    And this is why closed source software sucks.. Simple problems like this
    can't be fixed except by the people who wrote it and most are too arrogant
    to admit they screwed up..
    Stacey, Mar 27, 2005
  15. Bill Crocker

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    Well, even though Adobe is not currently using line-by-line blackpoint
    in their ACR, they did think ahead and included tags in the DNG format
    to have unique blackpoint deltas for each column and row of RAW pixels.
    If this is actually used in the future, this will be a benefit to all
    digital cameras with RAW or DNG output, if used properly. Currently the
    DNG converter and/or ACR don't make use of this data. Of course, a
    future camera may do it all wrong and write DNGs and leave the deltas
    out. Most (if not all) current RAW formats include the masked border
    pixels, so any RAW converter that really wants to can do line-by-line
    blackpoint, but none seem to be doing it yet (none with lots of
    user-control and a GUI, anyway).

    JPS, Mar 27, 2005
  16. Bill Crocker

    JPS Guest

    In message <>,
    Actually, I just remembered that the programmer of ACR said that he was
    using line-by-line blackpoint in ACR for some older cameras. It hadn't
    occured to him to use it for recent DSLRs, though.
    JPS, Mar 27, 2005
  17. Bill Crocker

    Chip Gallo Guest

    Ditto. I just bought a 580 flash and am contemplating the 10-22mm w/a
    zoom. I did update the firmware to the latest but never experienced
    lockups or focus issues before that.

    Pics at

    Chip Gallo
    Chip Gallo, Mar 28, 2005
  18. Bill Crocker

    Chip Gallo Guest

    Ditto. I just bought a 580 flash and am contemplating the 10-22mm w/a
    zoom. I did update the firmware to the latest but never experienced
    lockups or focus issues before that.

    Pics at

    Chip Gallo
    Chip Gallo, Mar 28, 2005
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