Canon 5DMII Picture Style --- any advantage when shooting raw?

Discussion in 'Canon' started by Guest, Mar 21, 2009.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I shoot raw, and the picture style is
    just for the jpeg conversion.

    However, the camera histogram is produced
    from the embedded jpeg, so I was wondering
    if there were any advantage to certain
    picture style settings in order to create
    a more accurate histogram.

    Barring that, is there a setting that will
    speed up the jpeg creation and allow more
    consecutive shots?

    Shooting RAW only, so only an embedded jpeg
    is produced...

    Thanks,
     
    Guest, Mar 21, 2009
    #1
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  2. Guest

    Bob Larter Guest

    I could be mistaken, but I believe that the histogram is made from the
    RAW image, not the JPEG.
     
    Bob Larter, Mar 21, 2009
    #2
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  3. Guest

    me Guest

    I can't specifically to the 5DMII, I shoot a D300. But I set all in camera
    image processing off/min so the histogram is not effected by the
    processing. As to speeding up consecutive shots, on the D300 there is a
    setting for max fps in given configurations. Be aware the actual achievable
    speed may be a function of several settings/conditions. Compressed vs
    non-compresssed and/or 12 vs 14 bit raw in the D300's case. Also how the
    camera s powered may make a difference, internal battery vs a grip powered
    by multiple batteries. Then there is the limit of the internal memory
    buffer, which once filled requires an image to be written to the storage
    card before another can be taken. If you are hitting this, then maybe
    faster cards may help. Rob Galbraith's card speed database is the best to
    check, http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/camera_multi_page.asp?cid=6007-9784
    Finally, of course remember the very fundamental limitation of what shutter
    speeds are being used. The camera's max fps is usually quoted at some
    minimum shutter speed.
     
    me, Mar 21, 2009
    #3
  4. Guest

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    I've never heard of any camera that shows a histogram from the raw data.
    I'd be thrilled to learn that this has changed, however. It's incredibly
    stupid to show a JPEG histogram on a DSLR.

    In answer to the original question, the main thing that affects the
    histogram would be the contrast setting, which is best kept on the
    lowest setting so you don't think you've maxed out the exposure when
    you still have lots of headroom left.
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Mar 21, 2009
    #4
  5. Guest

    Charles Guest

    You are going to have to explain that to me.
     
    Charles, Mar 21, 2009
    #5
  6. Guest

    Me Guest

    For a practical example, using a Nikon with "vivid" (very high
    saturation) picture control set in camera to shoot macro of butterflies.
    The histogram may often show blown red channels, but in the the raw
    file the red channel may be fine, and even if a very high saturation
    result is desired, some simple tweaking of the raw file may be able to
    achieve this without blowing colour channels. It might be as simple as
    a w/b adjustment.
    Relying on the histogram from the embedded jpeg in the raw file might
    lead you to reduce exposure until the histogram shows no clipping, but
    resulting in a significantly underexposed shot.
    Better in that case to use a neutral "picture control" when shooting raw
    even when a high saturation image is the target.
    I'm not sure if Canon work the same way as Nikon on this.
    A useful feature of Nikon's picture control is that if Nikon raw
    software is used to post-process the raw file, then the embedded jpeg is
    modified, so if edited using Capture NX, then the thumbnails displayed
    in explorer etc show the edited result, not the original.
     
    Me, Mar 21, 2009
    #6
  7. Guest

    Jim Guest

    I have my 5DMII set for raw only - no jpeg at all. I still get a
    histogram - must come from somewhere.
     
    Jim, Mar 21, 2009
    #7
  8. Guest

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    It's still generating a JPEG. That's what you see on the LCD screen (you
    can't very well view a raw file directly), and it's what the histogram is
    based on.
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Mar 21, 2009
    #8
  9. Guest

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    The JPEG clips well before the raw file; depending on the settings it could
    be more than a full stop off. The information you're getting from the
    histogram is compromised by being based on a rendered image. It might look
    like your exposure is right, but you need to do some trial and error to know
    what it's really telling you.
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Mar 21, 2009
    #9
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have my 5DMII set for raw only - no jpeg at all. I still get a
    histogram - must come from somewhere.[/QUOTE]

    the only way to *get* a histogram is by demosaicing the raw data into
    an image, and once that's done, turning it into a jpeg is easy. and
    there is a jpeg embedded within the raw file, so even if you shoot raw
    only, it's still going to make a jpeg.
     
    Guest, Mar 22, 2009
    #10
  11. Guest

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Where did you get that bit of information?
     
    Ray Fischer, Mar 22, 2009
    #11
  12. Guest

    Ray Fischer Guest

    Well, I admit to being highly skeptical of that, so I thought of a way
    to test it. Set the camera to B&W and the histogram to RGB, then
    shoot a picture of a blue object. Of course the R, G, & B histograms
    are identical, regardless of the color of the image, even though the
    RAW image is in color. Clearly the histogram isn't generated from the
    RAW data.

    As a software engineer I can see just why they did that, but I still
    find it annoying. (It's probably using the code from the original
    brightness-only histogram with the color version tacked on. If I
    worked for Canon I'd file a bug, but probably nobody has noticed the
    problem there yet.)
     
    Ray Fischer, Mar 22, 2009
    #12
  13. I wonder what visible RAW reality is?

    I notice when shooting raw with flash with my Sony A350 that sometimes
    I screw up and the flash fails to fire, resulting in a completely
    black image in the camera's LCD. And if I put the resulting RAW file
    into Sony's RAW converter it's completely black, no way to bring up
    the slightest hint of anything visible.

    But if I give that "completely black" RAW file to Picasa, it shows a
    perfectly recognisable very underexposed and noisy image, one that
    might well under some circumstances be a lot better than nothing.

    Weird stuff, this reality. What it looks like seems to depend on how
    you look at it :)
     
    Chris Malcolm, Mar 22, 2009
    #13
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Jim writes:

    [/QUOTE]

    Jim> I have my 5DMII set for raw only - no jpeg at all. I still get a
    Jim> histogram - must come from somewhere.

    It comes from the small embedded jpeg in the raw file.

    Jim> --
    Jim> Jim
     
    Guest, Mar 22, 2009
    #14
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Jeremy Nixon writes:


    Jeremy> I've never heard of any camera that shows a histogram from the raw data.
    Jeremy> I'd be thrilled to learn that this has changed, however. It's incredibly
    Jeremy> stupid to show a JPEG histogram on a DSLR.

    Jeremy> In answer to the original question, the main thing that affects the
    Jeremy> histogram would be the contrast setting, which is best kept on the
    Jeremy> lowest setting so you don't think you've maxed out the exposure when

    So go negative on the contrast, not neutral?

    Wouldn't that be a good idea with the saturation
    control as well?

    Thanks,
    ah

    Jeremy> you still have lots of headroom left.

    Jeremy> --
    Jeremy> Jeremy Nixon | http://www.defocus.net
    Jeremy> Email address in header is valid
     
    Guest, Mar 22, 2009
    #15
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Alan Browne writes:


    Alan> How accurate does it need to be?

    Alan> Accuracy means some quantitative measurement. Histo's provide no
    Alan> quantitative data to the user.

    Alan> A different style setting will have minor effects on the histo, but
    Alan> little effect in driving a channel over the edge in highlights that
    Alan> would effect the image all that much.

    It was the highlights that I was thinking of. Lots of times the
    Canon blown highlights indicator was triggered when the default
    ACR settings had no blown highlights. Many more times the ACR
    recovery could get back some detail...
     
    Guest, Mar 22, 2009
    #16
  17. Guest

    Jeremy Nixon Guest

    I do, yes. All the way down.
    Probably. It's far from exact; you still have to trial-and-error to learn
    what the screen is actually telling you. The custom white-balance idea
    Floyd posted elsewhere in this thread sounds *much* better.
     
    Jeremy Nixon, Mar 22, 2009
    #17
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