Canon HF10(AVCHD) vs HV30 (HDV)

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by Ned, Jul 3, 2008.

  1. Ned

    Ned Guest

    I recently found some 16 year old HI8 tapes and the fine folks here
    helped me get them onto my PC by telling me which camera to purchase
    to convert them and it worked out perfectly. Those tapes looked just
    as good as the day I recorded them and they confirmed for me the
    importance of having an easy way to archive video. Now I want to
    purchase a new camcorder and many people are saying that tape is dead.
    Well, when I think of trying to preserve movies saved to a flash
    drive. I would have to remember and take the time to copy those movies
    to a DVD, actually 2 DVD's for 1 hour of HD and those DVD's should be
    archival quality and hopefully protected from being scratched. If I
    store movies on my hard disk, it had better be mirrored and I better
    be sure a virus does not wipe them out. I could always store movies on
    an SD memory card, they cost about $30 per card for 8GB (1 hour),
    that's about $20 more than a $10 HD mindvd tape. I think that the HV30
    will be my camera of choice because I get an instant copy of my movie
    that I can archive for the next 15 years without going through all the
    trouble that I'd go through with the HF10(flash based). At a price of
    around $800 I can buy this camera now and sell it in a couple of years
    when memory is cheaper, and when there are better solutions to the
    issue of archiving. As for the technical aspects of AVCHD vs HDV, I
    cannot say they matter to me. I was happy with my old Hi8 tapes and my
    current Sony HC90 so I am sure I will enjoy whatever HDV can offer.
    I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the topic.

    Thanks!
     
    Ned, Jul 3, 2008
    #1
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  2. Ned

    Smarty Guest

    Ned,

    No doubt the self-archiving feature of the HDV camcorders like the HV-30
    make it easier to keep a copy of your footage. It is also extremely easy to
    copy either format over to a hard disk and use the hard disk as a backup
    medium rather than leave things on SD cards or tapes.

    I own and heavily use both Canon formats, the HV20 and the HF100, as well as
    many other camcorders including Hi8 and earlier formats dating back to the
    first camcorders and home video cameras in the 1960s. I have always found
    tape to be a very durable media although the camcorders and other playback
    equipment ages badly, particularly the rubber pinch rollers and belts. The
    solid state recording cameras like the HF10/100 have a lot to recommend them
    in this regard, as well as a considerable reduction in weight, ease of clip
    access, and storage efficiency. You will need a much faster computer to
    handle AVCHD editing if you should chose to do so. HDV edits fine on older
    single core machines, whereas AVCHD really demands a quad core to edit
    smoothly.

    The HV30 is a superb camera, and you will probably find it to be exceptional
    in all respects, offering a few improvements over the HV20 I own, which
    replaced several other (Sony) HDV camcorders including a 3CCD model I
    previously owned. It's a real bargain in my opinion, and has the archiving
    advantage you prefer.

    I would make the decision personally based on what your editing requirements
    are, since the video captured by these (HV30 and HF10/100) cameras is
    virtually identical in most respects, the only apparent difference being a
    slight disadvantage to AVCHD in motion artifacts.

    Hope this is helpful,

    Smarty
     
    Smarty, Jul 3, 2008
    #2
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  3. Ned

    Ned Guest

    Hi Smarty
    Thanks for your input. I do not feel like upgrading my pc to a quad
    core just to edit video and I do not want the overhead of having to
    copy movies to my hard drive when the flash memory is full and then
    backing up the hard drive to protect against a drive crash or erasure
    by virus. I also don't like keeping all my movies on one or even two
    drives. I prefer to use inexpensive tape and not have the worries.
    Tape places no demands on my time, it gets full and I change it. It
    does not crash like a drive, it is durable and it stands the test of
    time. If a tape is lost or damaged I only lose 1 movie. If a hard
    drive is damaged or erased, I lose all my movies. I feel the camera
    manufacturers have given us a great option with flash based internal
    memory, but I feel they should do offer solutions for archiving and
    preserving too, someone should. I know of many non-technical people
    buying these cameras and I am sure there will be many lost videos as a
    result. Thanks again and have a great holiday.
     
    Ned, Jul 3, 2008
    #3
  4. Ned

    Ken Maltby Guest

    I feel the camera
    manufacturers have given us a great option with flash based internal
    memory, but I feel they should do offer solutions for archiving and
    preserving too, someone should. I know of many non-technical people
    buying these cameras and I am sure there will be many lost videos as a
    result. Thanks again and have a great holiday.


    http://www.provantage.com/tandberg-114-00508~7EXAC02R.htm

    Luck;
    Ken
     
    Ken Maltby, Jul 3, 2008
    #4
  5. Ned

    Smarty Guest

    Hi Smarty
    Thanks for your input. I do not feel like upgrading my pc to a quad
    core just to edit video and I do not want the overhead of having to
    copy movies to my hard drive when the flash memory is full and then
    backing up the hard drive to protect against a drive crash or erasure
    by virus. I also don't like keeping all my movies on one or even two
    drives. I prefer to use inexpensive tape and not have the worries.
    Tape places no demands on my time, it gets full and I change it. It
    does not crash like a drive, it is durable and it stands the test of
    time. If a tape is lost or damaged I only lose 1 movie. If a hard
    drive is damaged or erased, I lose all my movies. I feel the camera
    manufacturers have given us a great option with flash based internal
    memory, but I feel they should do offer solutions for archiving and
    preserving too, someone should. I know of many non-technical people
    buying these cameras and I am sure there will be many lost videos as a
    result. Thanks again and have a great holiday.


    Glad to help out Ned, and I totally understand your rationale. The Canon
    camcorders are really superb, and the HV30 takes really extraordinary video,
    so good in fact that most people who see HV20 home video make the comment
    that it looks better than any of the HD they are seeing on TV from satellite
    or cable. Tape is a very good archival method, and HDV is way easier to
    handle on all but the extremely high performance computers which you would
    otherwise have to consider if going the AVCHD route.

    I presently have 6 programs which all edit AVCHD and not a single one of
    them really runs as well on a quad core QX9650 Dell as my HDV edits on an
    older 3 GHz Pentium IV Dell, even though the CPU difference between the two
    machines benchmarks about 7 times faster for the quadcore. AVCHD is a real
    bear to handle, and I scoured these newsgroups, forums, and all other
    sources I could find trying to see if there was a less expensive way to deal
    with AVCHD editing, but eventually found that a major processor upgrade was
    unavoidable. It is not a coincidence that very little proxy editing exists
    for AVCHD since the format is still quite new, whereas HDV proxy editing has
    been around for a few years and is vastly more mature in all respects.
    Frankly, I still have yet to understand why there is so much enthusiasm for
    AVCHD since the ultimate storage rate to achieve truly equal performance to
    25 Mbit/sec HDV requires AVCHD at about 16 or 17 Mbits/sec. The additional
    savings in space seems hardly worth it to me given that the processing
    burden grows so disproportionately, at least 5 to 7 times in my experience
    (until proxy editors eventually emerge). Even if and when proxy editors do
    emerge for AVCHD, the ingest times will grow tremendously with most
    computers since the proxy approach trades scrubbing time for ingest and
    rendering penalties, and is therefore by no means a "free lunch".

    Enough technicalities. Get yourself an HC30 and enjoy the weekend!!!!!


    Smarty
     
    Smarty, Jul 3, 2008
    #5
  6. And for fun, I looked (not exhaustively) at the cost of tape at
    Provantage. The first thing I found was

    http://www.provantage.com/acer-91-ad274-012~7ACE901U.htm

    About $126 for 80 GB, enough to hold about 6 miniDv tapes uncompressed.
    I don't believe that the tape can hold 160 GB of compressed DV25 files,
    because I don't believe there is much room for further *lossless*
    compression of the DV25.

    That's not cheap if you're backing up DV25; it might be practical for
    saving other more compressed formats.
     
    Gene E. Bloch, Jul 4, 2008
    #6
  7. Ned

    Ken Maltby Guest

    The $55.26 80 GB uncompressed Tandberg Data tape might
    have been my choice, if I wanted an 80 GB tape for that VXA-2
    Tandberg Data drive. Or maybe two of the $25.49 40 GB tapes.
    It might depend on how much needed to be archived, or how
    much there was for each project.
    The format under discussion is AVCHD. If you would have looked
    beyond "the first thing you found":
    http://www.provantage.com/scripts/search.dll/B-SMTAPE?SEC=~SMTAPE&SORT=2&A1=31873&V1=VXA+-+VXA-2
    This is just what they have that supports that drive type. A little
    research might find a better tape drive to meet a specific need.
    I brought this one up because it uses the IDE/ATAPI interface
    and is relatively cheap. Most use a SCSI interface but you can
    get them with Firewire or USB as well.

    And Provantage may not be the best or cheapest source.

    DV25 wasn't part of the discussion, and while the mini-dv tape
    format doesn't have some of the recovery features that are built
    into this type of data storage system, it should do for keeping
    camcorder video data. So, for that, you would simply save the
    original miniDV tape. The same is true for HDV.

    In addition to that, you should read the sequence of the posts
    and the particular paragraph I was responding to ( and that I
    quoted). In other words; someone does offer solutions.

    Luck;
    Ken
     
    Ken Maltby, Jul 4, 2008
    #7
  8. I meant no more than I said.
     
    Gene E. Bloch, Jul 4, 2008
    #8
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