Canon Legria G10 - 50i or 25p - which is better for movement artefacts

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by Peter, Aug 6, 2011.

  1. Peter

    Peter Guest

    I have made two clips, as similar as I could make them

    The camera is in manual focus and is focused on the orange flower in
    the foreground.

    I think it is clear that 50i is better, though I cannot see any
    difference on my 3GHz PC / VLC playback because the playback is too
    rough. The difference is clearly visible on playback via HDMI straight
    from the camera to a Sony 1080P TV.

    It's been suggested to me that I should replace my Nvidia card with a
    VDPAU supporting video card, but this

    suggests that win7 is required for VDPAU to work with VLC. Is that
    right? I am on winXP.

    I have this card
    which ought to be good enough.

    The motherboard is this one
    Peter, Aug 6, 2011
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  2. With 50i played back on the TV (which deinterlaces each of the two
    different fields to effectively produce a frame rate of 50p on the
    TV instead of the slower frame rate of 25p [with less information
    per unit of time for the obvious reason]), the video will look better
    than when it is played on the computer (which does not deinterlace,
    so the effective information is effectively the same [interlacing
    rules here, unless you are comparing it with 50p original, which
    is why I'm so enchanted by the Panasonic TM700...;-]). BTW, if you
    want to directly compare your two formats, put them on a Vegas
    timeline one above the other. Move through the top one frame by
    frame (using the "Alt" key + "Left"/"Right" arrow keys to find the
    best frame. Mark down its timecode or place a marker there. Slip
    the bottom track along with the cursor at that point and the top
    track turned off (switching it on/off to get best agreement between
    content, then at high magnification slipping the bottom track back
    and forth to find a best frame). Now with the cursor at the saved
    timecode position on the timeline, you can leave the bottom track
    turned on and turn the top one on/off to compare the two *frames*
    directly (but this is totally useless, since you will be comparing
    a single "p" frame with an "i" frame, and with motion, the "i"
    *single* frame is going to lose -- so, NEVER MIND! 8^( But, the
    lesson is here that viewing video on a computer compared with a TV
    is "like comparing apples with oranges"...
    Most of us who are trying to work with AVCHD video (even with the
    least stressing file types from even tiny pocket cameras) have
    discovered that HDV requires MUCH less in the way of computer gear
    to play well. This *IS* a problem! Changing relatively minor things
    like what you have suggested is unlikely to help much. I've tried
    EVERYTHING I could find to make my 2.83 quad-core machine play AVCHD
    of any type properly, and I have failed. The solution appears to
    be what I have described in a thread here called "Anyone Have 3.4GHz
    i7 2600[K] CPU?". Read the last entry. Not cheap at around $1000
    for a replacement MB/CPU/RAM (plus the Win 7-64bit software), but
    it looks like this is a solution for an unfortunately too common
    problem. Also, if you do not use a video card in the computer, the
    CPU onboard video appears to be optimized for playing AVCHD files.
    In addition, if you are careful with box cooling and RAM choice, it
    appears that the Intel 2600K can be overclocked easily and safely
    to just under 5GHz, making one VERY FAST computer for video editing!
    (My thanks to "Frank" for pointing me in this direction - but I'm
    still "on the fence" regarding spending this much new money on
    what is essentially just a "hobby". ;-)

    David Ruether, Aug 6, 2011
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  3. Peter

    Peter Guest

    OK, David, all noted and understood. I am not going to spend $1000+
    upgrading my PC, especially if the required video card needs a load of
    power and the PC runs 24/7 for the best reliability.

    So, let's forget trying to achieve high grade playback on a PC. Let's
    say the final objective is an Iphone4-preset Handbrake-generated MP4
    video, 1mbps.

    Do you think that starting with 50i, editing in Vegas at 50i, saving
    the file at 50i, and using Handbrake to produce the final 30fps
    progressive video will still be better than shooting and working at

    Obviously I could test it myself, in under an hour, but what do you

    In reality I am having great difficulty seeing any difference between
    various "Iphone4" videos, 1mbps to 5mbps, with various variations.

    Peter, Aug 6, 2011
  4. j1jqjd$jke$:

    My question for Frank now, though, is if this i7 2600K onboard video
    (with *NO* video card in any MB slot, which would disable the CPU video)
    will accelerate playback of standard-formats of AVCHD, is it likely
    also to do it with the non-standard format shot by the TM700 (28Mbps
    VBR 1920x1080p 59.940fps)? Thanks.

    David Ruether, Aug 6, 2011
  5. [Maybe better not to "top post" and follow the convention of
    bottom posting - but editing out irrelevant material is OK...]
    The mentioned Intel 2600K CPU should not be used with *ANY*
    video card installed for best playback performance with AVCHD,
    and this CPU is more efficient than older ones for power use.
    You should not need to run the computer continuously - turn it
    on for the day's use, then turn it off when finished...
    Better in, better out (I work in "60"p, but must convert to
    "60"i for Blu-ray, but with adding many filters etc., this looks
    better than when working with "60"i) - BUT, as I understand it,
    your intended end result is of such low quality that it probably
    doesn't make much difference (if any, that is visible). I'm
    trying for the VERY HIGHEST quality end result I can get from
    a VERY SHARP "60"p camcorder, so my concerns are very different
    from yours. If you get acceptable preview playback with 50i
    (remember you can use RAM previewing in Vegas to smoothly check
    short parts - and in Vegas you can also simultaneously run a
    full-resolution second monitor for previewing), I would work in
    that, saving the end product in the same format, and also saving
    it in Vegas in any other format you want (remember that you can
    customize the file types in Vegas...).
    That probably depends on the viewing conditions. I was able to
    "clearly" see differences in your first set of four samples (the
    ones shot in different camera shooting modes) that you did not see...

    David Ruether, Aug 6, 2011
  6. Peter

    Frank Guest

    Canon Legria G10 - 50i or 25p - which is better for
    movement artefacts>,

    I have to make this fast because I don't know whether or not I'll get
    interrupted in a minute or so or not.

    Peter: Keep shooting in MXP (24 Mbps max) 1080i50 mode (with,
    unfortunately, lossy compressed Dolby Digital AC-3 audio since your
    camcorder doesn't offer uncompressed LPCM audio recording).
    Deinterlace in Vegas or in HandBrake, your choice. Then encode as
    you've been doing in HandBrake to smaller frame size MPEG-4 Part 10
    AVC / H.264 25 frame per second progressive video at under 1 Mbps with
    MPEG-4 AAC-LC 2/16/48 audio at 128 kbps (or lower).

    David: I wish that I could answer your video card question, but I
    don't own one like that and can't research it right now. Also, in
    response to a another post of yours in a different thread, I did
    e-mail you, twice in fact, to two different e-mail addresses, but have
    not heard back from you.

    Frank, Aug 7, 2011
  7. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Curiously, the Inphone/Ipad preset in Handbrake selects 29.99 FPS.
    Peter, Aug 7, 2011
  8. [...]
    I have tried "everything under the sun" repeatedly to get an
    email response to you, but unsuccessfully (I do make the
    obvious change in your address). My email is on my web page
    (first item in a Google search on "david ruether" or "david
    ruether photography" [WATCH THE SPELLING!!!]), but here are
    the addresses:

    Please try again (I don't know why I was unsuccessful with
    getting an email to you...). In my email, I will send a
    'phone number.

    David Ruether, Aug 7, 2011
  9. Peter

    Frank Guest

    Canon Legria G10 - 50i or 25p - which is better for
    movement artefacts>,
    No problem. Just tried again with the Road Runner address.

    Frank, Aug 7, 2011
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