Capturing from Satellite MPEG DVB - Which is best method

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by Jim, Dec 10, 2004.

  1. Jim

    Jim Guest

    I was wondering if anyone has had experience capturing video from an
    MPEG DVB satellite receiver (like Dish Network, Express Vu, etc)? I
    find that the actual video from these sources don't seem to have the
    crisp video that you get from the analog video from the BUD (Big Ugly
    Dish). I was told on the MPEG DVB newsgroup that the source is run
    through a Low Pass filter before encoding to allow them to use a lower
    bitrate. I guess that's why to me the picture looks "soft" compared
    to good analogue video. THis allows them to fit more channels in the
    same bandwidth.

    Anyway, I have tried various capture methods (the stream is already
    compressed MPEG), and if you capture in say MP2 you get video equal
    to what's on screen but file sizes are large for archiving..

    I also tried capturing in both MJPEG and HUFFYUV, and Huffyuv gives
    the best quality AVI. However, the problem comes in when you try to
    further compress it.

    I wonder if anyone has come up with a method for archiving their
    favorite shows and just what method you have found best compromise
    between quality and size? Suggestions?
     
    Jim, Dec 10, 2004
    #1
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  2. : Anyway, I have tried various capture methods (the stream is already
    : compressed MPEG), and if you capture in say MP2 you get video equal
    : to what's on screen but file sizes are large for archiving..

    I have no experience with DVB capturing, but if you capture as is and try
    to re-encode it, you will have worse quality.

    : I also tried capturing in both MJPEG and HUFFYUV, and Huffyuv gives
    : the best quality AVI. However, the problem comes in when you try to
    : further compress it.

    Of course. Huffyuv gives you the quality of the stream. But even if you capture
    uncompressed, you can't restore the original source material of the broadcast
    stations. So then when you compress it, it's the same effect as capturing as
    is and then further compress it.

    As far as I know the Digital Broadcast has the same MPEG-2 structure as DVDs.
    Why don't you just burn them on DVD?

    --Leonid
     
    Leonid Makarovsky, Dec 10, 2004
    #2
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  3. As far as I know the Digital Broadcast has the same MPEG-2 structure as
    DVDs.
    It's mpeg compressed but not in DVD format and, to my knowledge, you cannot
    access the native mpg data stream as it's encoded. It's possible to rip the
    decoded mpg file by removing the disk in a Dish PVR but it's more trouble
    than it's worth, at least to me. And the mpg data is not in 720X480. I think
    there's a Yahoo group called DishRip that explains the process in great
    detail.

    To answer the op's question, I capture Dish stuff with HuffYUV, edit out
    commercials if needed and smooth out the transitions and re-encode with
    Procoder using 2-pass VBR. Quality is indistinguishable from the original,
    at least on my 32" Sony XBR.

    I recently transitioned from a BUD to Dish and, except for the local Fox
    affiliate, I have difficulty discerning the difference. If you really look
    hard, it's noticeable but only if you really look for it.
     
    Chuck U. Farley, Dec 10, 2004
    #3
  4. :> As far as I know the Digital Broadcast has the same MPEG-2 structure as
    : DVDs.
    :> Why don't you just burn them on DVD?

    : It's mpeg compressed but not in DVD format and, to my knowledge, you cannot
    : access the native mpg data stream as it's encoded. It's possible to rip the
    : decoded mpg file by removing the disk in a Dish PVR but it's more trouble
    : than it's worth, at least to me. And the mpg data is not in 720X480. I think
    : there's a Yahoo group called DishRip that explains the process in great
    : detail.

    So I don't get it. It first records on the Dish's disk and then it gets to the
    computer.

    Are thre any Digital Tuner cards that copy directly what's being send without
    the compression?

    --Leonid
     
    Leonid Makarovsky, Dec 10, 2004
    #4
  5. So I don't get it. It first records on the Dish's disk and then it gets to
    the
    The signal that is received by the receiver is already mpg compressed on the
    uplink so the best you can do is capture in a lossless format and then
    re-encode with the best encoder you can use. With the BUD, it's an
    uncompressed analog signal that is uplinked so capturing that way only
    involves one encode for DVD format.
     
    Chuck U. Farley, Dec 10, 2004
    #5
  6. : The signal that is received by the receiver is already mpg compressed on the
    : uplink so the best you can do is capture in a lossless format and then

    Hold on.

    Can you get this MPEG compressed signal *digitally* with your digital tuner to
    your computer?

    : re-encode with the best encoder you can use. With the BUD, it's an
    : uncompressed analog signal that is uplinked so capturing that way only
    : involves one encode for DVD format.

    So you need to go analog, right? You can't go digital directly.

    --Leonid
     
    Leonid Makarovsky, Dec 11, 2004
    #6
  7. Hold on.
    Not sure what your question/statement means. BUD's are, by their very
    nature, an analog medium, it's the only way they can go. Nothing is
    compressed on either the uplink or downlink side. It's only when you capture
    that signal, via S-Video, composite, or RF that the signal is converted to a
    digital format, in my case, as an avi file via the HuffYUV codec.
     
    Chuck U. Farley, Dec 11, 2004
    #7
  8. : Not sure what your question/statement means. BUD's are, by their very
    : nature, an analog medium, it's the only way they can go. Nothing is
    : compressed on either the uplink or downlink side. It's only when you capture
    : that signal, via S-Video, composite, or RF that the signal is converted to a
    : digital format, in my case, as an avi file via the HuffYUV codec.

    I was talking about the tuner for digital satellite that transmit the signal
    as mpeg-2 files. Yes BUD transmits the signal as analog. For that you any
    analog capture card will work. But if I want to record the signal which
    is digital coming from the digital satellite, is it possible to record it
    as is?

    --Leonid
     
    Leonid Makarovsky, Dec 11, 2004
    #8
  9. I have been doing just that for years, here ine Europe.ge the cheapest possible DTV card (without decoider).
    Record the transport stream.
    That includes the original mpeg2.
    because some stations (sometimes) do use GOP size > 15) it is not always
    DVD spec, but it may staill play very well on that.
    I dunno about US, but Hauppauge.com has cards that work in Europe, and
    I would be surprized if they had no US cards.
    Foir this sort of stuff see my site:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/dvd/
    JP
     
    Jan Panteltje, Dec 11, 2004
    #9
  10. I have been doing just that for years, here ine Europe.ge the cheapest
    possible DTV card (without decoider).
    Are the sat signals not encrypted in Europe? AFAIK, with Dish and DirectTV
    here in the U.S., there is no way to access the data stream before the
    receiver/decoder as it's an encrypted signal. To my knowledge, this process
    in this group:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dishrip/

    is the only way to directly access the raw mpeg data from U.S. sats and, as
    I said before, the process isn't worth it to me.
     
    Chuck U. Farley, Dec 11, 2004
    #10
  11. Jim

    Jim Guest

    Chuck;

    After the editing do you try to reduce the data rate to reduce file
    size? When you capture what frame size do you use, 640 x 480 or
    352 x 480 or what? I have ProCoder and was wondering if you could
    give me a bit more detail?

    You are the second person that told me they can't notice any
    difference between the BUD video and MPEG DVB, but the difference to
    me is glaring and stands out like a sore thumb.

    If you could pass along the parameters you use in your recode I'd like
    to give them a try. THanks.
     
    Jim, Dec 11, 2004
    #11
  12. Some are, many not.
    This is not correct, on cards like the Nexus / SkyStar1 you cannot record
    the encrypted stream, but on SkyStar2 and wintv nova and other budged cards you
    can.
    The reason is that in the first 2 cards the hardware will intercept an encrypted
    stream.
    Once you have recorded an encrypted .ts you still need to decrypt it with a
    valid key op cause.
    Are you good in gambling ;-)?
    I dunno, I can record it no problem.
    Not illegal recording an encrypted TS...
    JP
     
    Jan Panteltje, Dec 11, 2004
    #12
  13. After the editing do you try to reduce the data rate to reduce file
    I capture to an avi file with an ATI All In Wonder card using the Huffyuv
    codec at 640X480 via an S-Video connection from the Dish DVR. I then encode
    with Procoder using the standard DVD NTSC template but change to
    Mastering-Quality and 2-pass VBR.
    A lot depends on the channel I'm watching. Like I said, my local Fox
    affiliate is almost unwatchable during the low light scenes of 24. Luckily,
    that and football are the only things I watch on Fox. When recording HBO or
    other premium channels, the picture quality is quite good, almost
    indiscernible from a BUD system. It's there if you _really_ look for it but
    usually only on fast moving/low light situations. And remember, I'm only
    watching on a 32" set.
    Good luck.
     
    Chuck U. Farley, Dec 13, 2004
    #13
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