Computer verses DVD Recorder for recording TV

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by Brian, Jan 3, 2005.

  1. Brian

    Brian Guest

    I often see people asking the question should I buy a DVD Recorder or
    buy a TV tuner and software for the computer to record TV programs and
    save them to DVD.

    I've tried both.

    Using the computer:
    I recorded a 1 hour show from TV using a ADVD-100 (analog to DV
    converter).
    It took 3 hours to render and write the video to DVD.
    If I had done video editing and added special effects it would take
    much longer to render the video.
    I could not use the computer while the video was being rendered and
    written to DVD.
    The picture looks darker when played back on TV.
    The computer could crash.
    You need extra hard disk space.
    There are more settings to worry about and it's easy to setup a
    program to the wrong setting.
    To record a program at a certain time I need to leave my computer on.

    Using a DVD recorder:
    Rendering and writing to DVD is done in real time using a DVD
    Recorder, which saves time.
    I also have the option of copying a video from the Hard drive to a DVD
    at high speed on the DVD Recorder.
    It's easier when using a DVD recorder for editing such as adding
    chapters, removing unwanted adverts etc.
    You have an option to format a DVD in VR format to allow you to create
    playlists etc.

    For recording TV programs and copying from important memories from
    video tape I perter to use a DVD Recorder.
    If I need to do a lot of editing to improve a video from a camcorder
    then I'd use the computer.

    Regards Brian
     
    Brian, Jan 3, 2005
    #1
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  2. Brian

    Steve P Guest

    Interesting...
    I use an old ATI AIW 7500 Tuner Card.
    I can record an hour TV program to my hard drive and burn it to a DVD in no
    time, if I choose. You don't need to re-render the video file to burn it to
    DVD.
    I've had no problem with video quality.
    I agree you need to leave the computer on and worry about crashes, but I've
    not had a problem with crashes.

    It's always interesting to see people do things different ways.
     
    Steve P, Jan 3, 2005
    #2
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  3. Brian

    Will Dormann Guest

    I prefer MythTV! :)
     
    Will Dormann, Jan 3, 2005
    #3
  4. You recorded DV-AVI and had to transcode to MPEG2 for DVD
    But leaves you with significantly lower-quality video. (MPEG2 vs.
    DV-AVI) But if you are just timeshifting your favorite TV program,
    this may not even be an issue.
     
    Richard Crowley, Jan 3, 2005
    #4
  5. Brian

    NSM Guest

    | Interesting...
    | I use an old ATI AIW 7500 Tuner Card.
    | I can record an hour TV program to my hard drive and burn it to a DVD in
    no
    | time, if I choose. You don't need to re-render the video file to burn it
    to
    | DVD.
    | I've had no problem with video quality.
    | I agree you need to leave the computer on and worry about crashes, but
    I've
    | not had a problem with crashes.

    I have a Haupagge TV card but I wonder if I can run the audio in separately
    so I can create stereo video files?

    N
     
    NSM, Jan 3, 2005
    #5
  6. Brian

    Brian Guest

    The video was converted to digital (using a hardware converter) and
    sent to the firewire to be saved on the hard drive as AVI.
    When transfering the video to DVD I'm going to loose some video
    quality.When recording on SP approx 5 to 6 Mbps (2 hour) or HQ approx 9 Mbps
    (1 hour) quality on my DVD Recorder I don't notice any difference on
    the TV screen (34 inch CRT) compared to the live boardcast. I receive
    Satellite TV.

    Regards Brian
     
    Brian, Jan 3, 2005
    #6
  7. The Canopus ADVC-100 encodes exclusively to *DV*.
    In hardware. There is no option for any other digital
    encoding.

    The application you ran on your computer took that DV
    bitstream and shoved it into an AVI container file. It could
    have also shoved it into a MOV container file (or likely
    several others).
    DV consumes ~13.5GB/hour while you can get 2 hours of
    MPEG2 (DVD) on a 4.7GB disc. That is a very significant
    further compression.
     
    Richard Crowley, Jan 3, 2005
    #7
  8. Brian

    camry Guest

    ===========================
    Please explain to the layman what that compression really means? I
    assume using the PC is better but more time consuming? It would be
    great to get a movie onto a single DVD-R though and I think using the
    PC allows for that and moe options?
     
    camry, Jan 4, 2005
    #8
  9. Brian

    Brian Guest

    Hi Richard.
    I don't get your point.
    Are you saying that it's better to use a computer to create a video
    or it's better to use a DVD recorder to record video?

    Regards Brian
     
    Brian, Jan 4, 2005
    #9
  10. camry wrote ...
    Uncompressed video (using NTSC for this example)
    consumes ~65.5GB/hour
    DV is compressed 5:1 and consumes 13.5GB/hour
    DVD is compressed ~15:1 and consumes ~2.3GB/hour
    Note that the DVD numbers are aproximate as MPEG2
    can use variable compression rates.
    It is possible to get "better" compression by hand-tuning
    compression ratios shot-by-shot. But seems unlikely that
    most people who are ripping off commercial DVDs take
    the trouble to do that. Note that there are several Usenet
    newsgroups devoted specifically to DVD where things
    like this are discussed by people who do it regularly.
    That may be a better source of information about differential
    comparison of various compression methods available for
    amateur use.
    PC applications like DVDshrink have been developed to do
    exactly that. But the name gives away the methodology. The
    MPEG2 data from the commercial DVD is compressed EVEN
    MORE to fit it onto a single-layer writable DVD. I don't
    follow the DVD rip-off community all that carefully, but I
    don't remember anyone saying that a DVDshrink compressed
    copy was as good as the original.
     
    Richard Crowley, Jan 4, 2005
    #10
  11. No. I am simply observing that DV is compressed 5:1 while
    DVD is compressed more like ~15:1 (regardless of the method
    used to compress: hardware vs. software)
     
    Richard Crowley, Jan 4, 2005
    #11
  12. Brian

    camry Guest

    Thanks for the info. All I want to do is backup my favourite movie on
    a DVD disk and no more. I am new at this and don't know all the
    newsgroups, though I am searching. I just want to do it simply, so I
    see alternatives as buying a commerical copying program and doing on
    my PC as it is more flxible than a home recorder which is limted to
    the media capacity of a DVD-R at 4.7 GB.

    They have new dual layered burners but the cost of the media is too
    prohibitive. It was so simply in the good ol days of VHS tapes :)

    Don
     
    camry, Jan 4, 2005
    #12
  13. Brian

    David Chien Guest

    The Canopus ADVC-100 encodes exclusively to *DV*.
    Here, you will also want to look at the Plextor MPEG-4 converter
    boxes that will do MPEG-2, MPEG-4, etc. such as:
    http://plextor.com/english/products/TV402U.htm

    eg review of one model:
    http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=10154

    Here, it's basically like the DVD encoder of a standalone DVD
    recorder dropped into a box that hooks up to your PC.
     
    David Chien, Jan 5, 2005
    #13
  14. Agreed.
    This issue - DVD recorder with tuner- versus PC, for *me* at least is no
    issue.
    I have 2 sources of TV (we are talking TV right), analog and digital
    satellite.
    Within a short time there will also be digital terrestial here.

    In the case of satellite the signal is already in mpeg2, but in some cases
    GOP is > 15.
    Anyways, usually you can get away with it even then by just muxing and
    burning.
    Of cause you can also PLAY and time delayed - shifted too- from the PC.
    In case of analog I have an old ASUS TV 7100 combo the luxe, in has no
    hardware mpeg encoder, but you can select any window codec.
    So I select DivX and do it in real time medium quality.
    It so happens modern DVD players can play the DivX (from CDR).

    But there are plenty other reasons to do it on the PC, you can edit,
    remove commercials, do format conversion, when terrestial comes all I need
    is spend 50Euro on a DVB-T PCI card....
    Some descramble the signal using special programs...
    I can record a while transponder, say 4 television programs at the time,
    cool in the years end when movies were on all day at all stations....
    And I can watch HDTV on my 19 inch monitor (normal TV too), think
    viewing angle, not bad at all.
    I can demux the audio, convert to mp3 if good music, and put on memory
    card for my mp3 player...
    The other thing is that I do NOT belive in 35374 different appliances in
    the house.
    Just no space for that.
    One box that interfaces to one screen, as normally you watch only one screen
    (eh I do), interfaces to the internet, and receives the broadcast in many
    other ways, is so much easier than all those 'settop boxes' etc...
    Then talk about programming, setting up timers, for all that stuff, easy.
    And ONE remote yes, plz, bookshelf full of them.

    Nevertheless there will be many 'DVD recorders' sold, and many will be
    obsolete and new ones will be sold again...

    Whatsyougonado with your dvdrecorder when we have bluelight ?
    Whatsyougonado with your DVD recorder when we go DVB-T.
    Whatsyougonado with your DVD recorder when we have movies over DSL.
    Whatsyougonado with your DVD recorder when new compression comes?
    Whatsyougonado with your DVD recorder when source is wmv?

    Just some thoughts.
     
    Jan Panteltje, Jan 8, 2005
    #14
  15. PS, and the argument 'PC must be always on' is actually
    PRO using a PC, because any self respecting geek these
    days HAS a PC as server (internet) that is always on, this one
    controls the house heating, alarm system, remote (holiday) house
    security (webcam control, sensors etc), and background music.
    So assigning the (occasional) TV recoding to the PC SAVES on
    electricity, helps the environment etc..
     
    Jan Panteltje, Jan 8, 2005
    #15
  16. Brian

    Brian Guest

    The only reason I'd leave a PC turned on at night is to download a
    large file (using 56K modem).
    If I record off TV using my PC I find that it ties up the computer as
    there is a lot of load on the processor. Also if I start using the
    computer while it's recording a TV program there's a good change that
    the computer will freeze and I'll lose the program I'm recording.

    Regards Brian
     
    Brian, Jan 9, 2005
    #16
  17. Brian

    Brian Guest

    Most video programs on the computer don't support the VR format for a
    DVD disc. making it difficult to edit a DVD disc (usually once video
    has been written to Disc it's then finalized. How many programs can
    unfinalize a DVD disc? My DVD recorder can unfinalize a DVD disc.
    I use to record TV programs to the hard drive but found I was quickly
    running out of hard disk space. I have a 80 Gig hard drive. I couldn't
    check the recording by playing it back while it was being recorded
    like you can on DVD Recorders. If I made a few changes then I'd have
    to render the file to Mpeg which takes time.

    Regards Brian
     
    Brian, Jan 9, 2005
    #17
  18. I am not 100% sure what you mean, but if 'finalizing' is the issue,
    then maybe what you say is that you want to add some stuff to the burned
    DVD later.
    I know some DVD recorders can do that.
    But wait a minute, what is it that you want to do?
    I record digital satellite (it is mpeg2) to disk, it is about 2GB / hour.
    There are several ways to burn this to disk, ONE of it is the official
    DVD format.
    I would only use that when sending out disks to somebody else, or MUST play
    on a standalone player, and when menus etc.. must be present.
    For DVD+R ..well, burned is burned (it is possible to add files later, but
    to create a new IFO for the DVD, you would have to remove the old one, and
    that is not possible I think?).
    For DVD+RW you'd have to make a new image.
    This is not an issue compared to the rest of the processing (time) really.
    The 10 minutes or so to create + burn the new image is nothing
    compared to what you will do creating a nice usable menu structure, buttons,
    pictures for these, perhaps multiple sound channels.
    Let's take a REAL example.
    I receive satellite 13E freq 12092 pol h and that station transmits in 8
    languages.
    Now of cause if I make DVDs from that then I want all 8 languages.
    That these are there is much more important then any menus even.
    This will require special tricks when recording the program, and more when
    creating the DVD.
    If I ONLY want to watch myself, then I need NO standalone player, use monitor,
    or video out from PC, record as transport stream.
    Want to archive this (multi language transport stream)? then burn it to DVD
    as an IMAGE.
    One per disk, use full 4.7GB available.
    The keyword here is flexibility.
    You have none of that with a standalone DVD recorder.
    Not even mentioning forwarding it over DSL.
    DVD recorder is like pre-cooked meal, and it can never compare to a real
    restaurant.
    You can live on pre-cooked food, but it will become somehow a bit eh .. let's
    say .. you want some more some day.
    DVD recorder will force you to buy a newer model.
    That does not mean DVD recorder is not a great solution for some people.
    But for those who want more, it is NOT.
    Have a look at my site:
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/dvd/
    for how to go about recording a bit more complicate stuff, and making DVDs
    with for example more audio channels.
    It is highly technical, but it can go so much further.
    I will leave your DVD recorder in the dust any time.
    The list of things your DVD recorder CANNOT do in almost infinite.
     
    Jan Panteltje, Jan 9, 2005
    #18
  19. Well I use Linux, and it never happened.
    Even now DVD recorders are coming on the market based on the Linux OS.
    Even Tivo is based on it.
    You should upgrade to DSL really :)
    It is more fun, and a LOT cheaper, nice for VOIP too, ah, I forgot that,
    for VOIP (Voice Over Internet, new way for telephone)) you want your PC to
    be on 24/7 too, and the
    reduction in your phone bill will MORE then pay for the extra electricity
    the PC uses.
    Do not look only at the video processing part, look at the PC as a data
    processor + interface to ANYTHING that you have in the house.
    Like you have some kettle for the heating perhaps, or an airco for the cooling,
    you have a PC for data.
     
    Jan Panteltje, Jan 9, 2005
    #19
  20. The only reason I'd leave a PC turned on at night is to download aI forgot to addres that point:
    Here is a 950 MHz Duron recoreding digital satellite.
    I gave this command:
    dvbstream -f 12092 -p h -s 27500 -o 8192 > /video/q1.ts

    This record the whole transponder to a file q1.ts in directory video

    Now let's look at what activity is all in there:
    -PID--FREQ-----BANDWIDTH-BANDWIDTH-
    0000 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0001 21 p/s 3 kb/s 32 kbit
    0011 3 p/s 0 kb/s 5 kbit
    0012 3 p/s 0 kb/s 5 kbit
    0016 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0020 21 p/s 3 kb/s 32 kbit
    0021 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0022 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0023 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0024 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0025 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0026 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0027 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0028 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0029 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    002a 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    002b 65 p/s 11 kb/s 97 kbit
    002c 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    0101 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    012b 8 p/s 1 kb/s 13 kbit
    036c 7 p/s 1 kb/s 11 kbit
    0460 91 p/s 16 kb/s 138 kbit
    0488 1143 p/s 209 kb/s 1719 kbit
    05dc 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    05dd 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    05de 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    0f47 85 p/s 15 kb/s 129 kbit
    1040 2472 p/s 453 kb/s 3718 kbit
    1041 89 p/s 16 kb/s 135 kbit
    1042 25 p/s 4 kb/s 38 kbit
    1060 1842 p/s 338 kb/s 2771 kbit
    1061 89 p/s 16 kb/s 135 kbit
    1110 1571 p/s 288 kb/s 2362 kbit
    1111 90 p/s 16 kb/s 136 kbit
    1130 68 p/s 12 kb/s 102 kbit
    1131 46 p/s 8 kb/s 69 kbit
    1132 46 p/s 8 kb/s 69 kbit
    1133 46 p/s 8 kb/s 69 kbit
    1134 46 p/s 8 kb/s 69 kbit
    1135 46 p/s 8 kb/s 69 kbit
    1136 45 p/s 8 kb/s 68 kbit
    1150 1758 p/s 322 kb/s 2645 kbit
    1151 90 p/s 16 kb/s 136 kbit
    115a 56 p/s 10 kb/s 84 kbit
    115b 11 p/s 2 kb/s 17 kbit
    115c 60 p/s 11 kb/s 90 kbit
    11a8 2222 p/s 407 kb/s 3342 kbit
    11a9 90 p/s 16 kb/s 136 kbit
    11f8 2250 p/s 413 kb/s 3385 kbit
    11f9 91 p/s 16 kb/s 138 kbit
    1216 1502 p/s 275 kb/s 2260 kbit
    1217 89 p/s 16 kb/s 135 kbit
    1234 1501 p/s 275 kb/s 2258 kbit
    1235 89 p/s 16 kb/s 135 kbit
    1252 1500 p/s 275 kb/s 2257 kbit
    1253 46 p/s 8 kb/s 69 kbit
    1254 46 p/s 8 kb/s 69 kbit
    1255 45 p/s 8 kb/s 68 kbit
    1256 45 p/s 8 kb/s 68 kbit
    1270 2256 p/s 414 kb/s 3394 kbit
    1271 90 p/s 16 kb/s 136 kbit
    127a 1800 p/s 330 kb/s 2707 kbit
    127b 92 p/s 16 kb/s 139 kbit
    127c 47 p/s 8 kb/s 71 kbit
    14b6 23 p/s 4 kb/s 35 kbit
    198f 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    1991 7 p/s 1 kb/s 11 kbit
    1992 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    1993 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    1994 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    1995 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    1996 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    1998 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    199a 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    199c 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    199f 4 p/s 0 kb/s 7 kbit
    19a0 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    19a1 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    19a3 4 p/s 0 kb/s 7 kbit
    19a4 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    19a6 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    19a7 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    19a8 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    19a9 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    19aa 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    19ac 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    19ad 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    19ae 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    19af 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    19b0 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    19b1 9 p/s 1 kb/s 14 kbit
    19b4 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    1f40 10 p/s 1 kb/s 16 kbit
    1fff 1036 p/s 190 kb/s 1558 kbit
    2000 25296 p/s 4644 kb/s 38045 kbit

    So I am recording 38 Mbit per second.
    Now let's see how much load that all pust on my system (The Duron 950):

    2:47pm up 13:13, 9 users, load average: 0.09, 0.02, 0.03

    90 processes: 88 sleeping, 2 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped
    CPU states: 2.5% user, 17.6% system, 0.5% nice, 79.1% idle
    Mem: 386780K av, 382608K used, 4172K free, 0K shrd, 5316K buff
    Swap: 530104K av, 924K used, 529180K free 258000K cached

    PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND
    17576 root 11 0 528 528 384 S 16.0 0.1 0:03 dvbstream
    17043 root 9 0 720 720 492 S 0.9 0.1 0:02 mpg123
    17630 root 12 0 912 912 708 R 0.5 0.2 0:00 top
    4 root 9 0 0 0 0 SW 0.1 0.0 0:00 kswapd

    See, 79.1 % idle.
    And I am running xwindows, and as yoi ucan see playing mp3 with mpg123.
    At the same time the things is a web server, and people are browsing my website
    and downloading files.

    It is running cool too:
    CPU core: +1.65 V (min = +1.53 V, max = +1.73 V)
    I/O: +3.33 V (min = +3.13 V, max = +3.43 V)
    +5V: +4.88 V (min = +4.70 V, max = +5.23 V)
    +12V: +11.95 V (min = +11.39 V, max = +12.44 V)
    CPU Fan: 4821 RPM (min = 4687 RPM, div = 2)
    P/S Fan: 2836 RPM (min = 2700 RPM, div = 2)
    CPU Temp: +48.0°C (limit = +63°C, hysteresis = +65°C)
    SYS Temp: +34.6°C (limit = +45°C, hysteresis = +48°C)
    VIA686a Temp:
    +25.5°C (limit = +38°C, hysteresis = +40°C)


    Of cause this is Linux.
    Oh, I forgot, I am using Netscape, NewsFleX nrewesreader at the same time too,
    writing this with NewsFleX.
    And there runs a ftp server at the same time, in fact 93 processes running,
    as you can see from 'top' above.
    Nothing ever 'crashes' I rebooted last night to print holograms on DVD
    (als experiment) in MS windows, hey, even that worked.
    If you have all these crashes maybe you have some hardware problem.

    When we look a the disk -capacity side:
    panteltje:~# hdparm -t /dev/hda
    /dev/hda:
    Timing buffered disk reads: 64 MB in 3.99 seconds = 16.04 MB/sec
    This is /video

    So, 38 Mbits / second does NOT really load the disk IO to max capacity at all,
    as that has 16 x 8 = 128 Mbit capacity.

    Now haow many TV video streams dod I record?
    Look at the above log:
    3 or so? anything over 3000 kbps is likely video, or perhaps data.
    Typical here in Europe is 4500 kbps for video.
    So I checked it by running tspids on teh recoeded file:
    panteltje:/video# tspids q1.ts
    tspids
    Reading q1.ts
    4520 4160 4600 4368 4720 4690 4730 4192 4432 4630 1160 4660 4442 4369 4402 4400 8191 3911 4731 4661
    and then a quick look with
    dvbstream -f 12092 -p h -s 27500 -o 4520 xine -D -
    on each PID.
    So I recorded 3 TV channels, my PC did not even notice, nothing crashed,
    and I have all audio channels and all data channels as a bonus.
    And I did not even have my fingers leave the keyboard.
    Now put this text in a script, give it a name, say: RECORD_TV, and activate
    voice control, and get rid of those IR remotes.
    But, wait, you may say, I want this on a DVD!
    No problemo:
    Stick in DVD (+R or +RW), then type:
    growisofs -Z /dev/dvd=/video/q1.ts

    That will take a few minutes to burn.

    But now you may say: But I want to play back that second program!
    No problemo:
    Insert DVD in PC, and type the magical Unix words:
    cat q1.ts | ts2pes 4520 4521 | mplayer -

    (I cheated, I looked up the audio PID in
    http://www.kingofsat.net/en/freqs.php?pos=13.0E for video PID 4520)
    Oops, that was all sex channels, that explains the young almost naked
    dancing girl.

    Those magic Unix words go a long way for those who did read the
    'ye ol' UNIX spell booke'.
    Actually I am proud to say some of these spells are mine.
    http://panteltje.com/panteltje/
     
    Jan Panteltje, Jan 9, 2005
    #20
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