Convert lots of Hi8 tapes to DVD?

OK, I am extremely familiar with computers, DV ,etc. However, my
parents are complete newbies to DV, and only one of them uses a PC
regularly (although still not a power user).

My parents have a large library (~20?) of Hi8 video tapes, taken over
the last 5-16 years on an old Sony Hi8 camcorder. Some of the tapes are
60 minutes, but a lot of them are 120 minutes. The video shot is of
family events, etc. Much used a tripod, appropriately lighting, etc.,
but this is not professional footage by any means.

We would like to transfer all of this footage to a more permanent
format. After much discussion, we decided that DVD-Video is probably
the best format right now. Of course, we will keep the original Hi8
tapes. But the DVD's will serve as a long-term backup. The tapes might
be used in the far future to have a professional make a compilation.
The DVD's would serve as an easy way to index and scan what is on each
tape. (i.e. make it much easier to use in concert with the tapes to
search and specify which footage to use.) In addition, should any of
the Hi8 tapes fail due to age, the DVD's would serve as a backup media.

I want to set my parents up with a combination of software and hardware
that will allow easy transfer from Hi8 to DVD, with minimal fuss. (I
know that I could do this myself, but given the large quantity of media
to backup, I don't want to do this for them on my own computer.)

My plan is to buy a Digital8 camcorder for the transfer, using a model
that is backward compatible with Hi8 (such as the Sony TRV-480). Note
that they already have a miniDV camcorder (TRV22), but no longer seem to
have the Hi8 camcorder. I.e. the purchase of a Digital8 camcorder is
solely to allow playback of the previous Hi8 tapes, and by buying a
Digital8 camcorder allow conversion and transfer of these tapes (through
Firewire) to a PC.

Their PC is up to the job, with the following key specs: P4 3.2GHz
(Hyperthreading enabled), 1GB RAM, 229GB hard drive space free (single
drive system), Philips DVD+-RW DVD8631.

In an ideal world, here's how I'd like this setup to work:

1) Load a Hi8 tape into the Digital8 camcorder, connect via Firewire to
the PC.

2) Use PC software to drive the camcorder and capture the entire Hi8
tape (either 60 minutes or 120 minutes) to the PC hard drive in DV AVI
format.

3) Software then converts the entire DV AVI file and burns a DVD+R disc.
The DVD+R disc should be in standard DVD video format, and should have
full menus with scene previews (motion previews preferred over
thumbnails).

Ideally, all of the above would be performed in some sort of a batch
mode, minimizing user intervention. I.e. you could start the process at
night, and the DVD would be burned and ready in the morning. This would
allow using the computer for other purposes during the day. If this had
to be performed in two steps (i.e. Step 1: capture, Step 2: compile
transcode and burn DVD), that would be acceptable, as just the capturing
could be performed overnight.

Due to the expense of DVD+R/Dual Layer discs, the fact that their
current drive supports only single-layer discs, as well as my own
concerns about the longevity of these new dual-layer discs, I'd like to
stick with single-layer DVD+R discs.

Key Requirements:

A) I want this to be easy, but not at the expense of quality. I want
to have the _best quality transfers possible_. The DVD's may end up
being the masters in the long run, used to make further compilations.
So, easy-to-use software is important, but I don't want this to also
mean that poor quality MPEG transcoding then results. Ideally, the
software would perform two-pass variable bitrate encoding.

B) Dropped frames should be detected by the capture software.

C) I only want to put an hour of video on each DVD+R disc, to avoid
reducing quality. Obviously, this will complicate things when working
with 120 minute Hi8 tapes. I'm sure it's unlikely that something fully
automatic and hands-off is available to deal with this. Therefore, it
should at least be relatively easy for the user to split a 120 minute
capture and feed to two separate DVDs.

D) The produced DVD needs to have chapters, with a thumbnail (or video
preview) index. Therefore, the software needs to assign chapters.
Preferably this would be through scene detection (looking at the actual
video - not through timecode change detection). In lieu of this, being
able to specify a set interval (e.g. new chapter every 3 minutes) would
be workable.


Can anyone please recommend to me a software package that will allow to
easily doing the above?


As an example, I have considered Adobe Premiere Elements.
The "pros":
-It will capture from a Hi8 tape from a Digital8 camcorder, controlling
the device as if it were a miniDV capture (a user has verified that it
works this way with a Sony TRV-480 with Hi8 format tapes).
- It can capture directly to the timeline, avoiding making the user have
manually do this step.
- It can convert to a DVD, with full menus and thumbnail previews and
burn.
- It can assign chapters to a DVD based on a specified, fixed time
interval (e.g. every 3 minutes).
The "cons" (some speculative):
- The scene detection is based on timecode only. Therefore, it won't
break a Hi8 tape by scene.
- As far as I can tell, the DVD menus do not use motion previews
- I'm not sure how sophisticated the quality of the MPEG rendering is in
this product. I am assuming that it is only a subset of the quality of
other decoders (e.g. Cinema Craft, or even the MPEG encoder in Adobe
Premiere Pro 1.5).
- How to handle 120 minute tapes?

So, Adobe Premiere Elements seems like it might be workable, although I
do not own the product. The "cons" are definitely a concern, although
some might be easy to work around. I.e., if it's easy to convert only
half of the timeline to DVD, that could be used (with user interaction)
to split the 120 minutes onto two separate DVDs.


Does anybody here have any better suggestions?

Thanks in advance very much for any help and advice.

 

(snip)

Hi,
Why don't save your parents all that trouble and buy a standalone DVD
Recorder ? Some models like the Sony RDR-HX900 come with an hard disk and
have excelent editing features, the MPEG-2 encoding is done in real time.
You can either burn directly from camcorder to DVD or capture to hard disk,
do some edit and the burn to DVD. Pioneer and Toshiba also make very good
DVD/HDD recorders and all of them come with analog and Firewire inputs.
Mux!

 

"fsda" wrote ...

I guess "large" is relative. 2000 would be "large" in my book.
20 is several evenings diversion.

It is quite possible that the tapes will outlive the optical
discs. The MPEG lossy compression of DVD will reduce
the resolution of the Hi8 video, but maybe not enough to
matter with amateur footage.

Sounds good to me.

I'd agree with the others that it would be significantly simpler
(and quite possibly cheaper also) to equip your parents with
a standalone DVD recorder. If they can run a VCR, they can
burn DVDs with these things. They go for as little as $150
at Costco (at least in my neighborhood). Besides, it is a good,
modern replacement for a VCR for recording off the air/
satellite/cable, etc.

 

You stole my answer!

Seriously, I sometimes get criticized for suggesting the easy beginner
route early and often, but when I see letters that suggest that people
want to do it quickly, once and without having to take a class to figure
it out, I go for the DVD recorder where hooking up the cables is the
biggest hurdle. And on the plus side, they get to replace their old VCR
with a DVD recorder in the bargain.

 

Hi,
I am curently doing the same with 205 8 mm and Hi8 tapes.
I decided to make single Mpeg out of the DV AVI as an Mpeg is easier to work
with than a VOB from a DVD due to the file splitting.
Currently I am planning to use Womble to edit the video as it can do a smart
render so there is no further quality loss after the first encoding.
I find that I can put 90 minutes of video on one single layer DVD at 6500
variable bitrate.
Womble can scroll very quickly through the timeline so it is quite easy to
find that "special bit" of video.

Regards,

Martin

 

A) I want this to be easy, but not at the expense of quality. I want

Here, you may want to wait until next year until the HD DVD/BluRay
DVDs are out. DVDs simply do not have sufficient bandwidth to archive
videos at a 'master' quality level (broadcast/commerical master), IMO.

The MPEG-2 artifacts are simply to easy to spot and editing the
videos off a DVD merely makes the resulting video look worse.

If you really want to 'archive', dump a copy of that Hi8 tape to DV
tape while you're at it. At least you'll have a high-quality digital
copy of the original that has error correction (to last through time)
and has a decent amount of the original quality to be edited a few times
w/o severe degredation (yes, there's D1-D5 tapes as well for even better
archving, but for a consumer, DVs pretty much it....).

Cinema Craft Encoder

Vegas Video does it well. But any 2+Ghz PC nowadays will capture for
hours w/o any problems at all.

Here, you may want to simply dump to DVD+R Dual Layer discs, which
will retain the highest quality for 2 hours of video.

Pretty much any basic DVD making software does this - eg. Ulead DVD
Workshop 2.0.

Ulead DVD software.
Vegas video + DVD.

---

www.videohelp.com

---

Here, there's something to keep in mind - with the number of tapes
you have, and the limited 'knowhow' of the people involved, you may wish
to consider buying a TV-top DVD recorder+HDD unit instead.

I would look at the Pioneer or Panasonic models as they're of the
highest quality.

Also, you may wish to wait until the DL DVD decks come out in the USA
(out in Japan already) - these will let you store 2 hours of highest
quality (XP/FIne mode) video onto a DL DVD.

The HDD models allow you to insert chapter marks, edit, and menu
before burning to disc.

The decks can do pretty much everything you want with minimal fuss
and at a high enough quality (off a hi8 source) that you'll have a DVD
disc that'll look 99% like the original w/o much trouble. (Naturally,
never 100% because MPEG-2 compresses the video quite heavily, more so
than even DV tape video.)

The built-in video cleanup/stabilization/noise reduction features
that these decks also have can help provide a clean transfer w/o much
work at all.

Naturally, with HD DVD/BluRay coming out in a year or so, you may
wish to wait - these discs will hold hours of your video at the highest
quality w/o noticable degredation at all.

---

In the meantime, pre-conversion to digital by dumping a copy onto DV
tapes may be worthwhile if you think you'll be keeping copies on tape
around for decade+. It'll be in a format that has error correction,
already in the DV format for easy editing, and easy to work with.

 

"> Here, there's something to keep in mind - with the number of tapes

I join the chorus in favor of this solution.

They are out in Europe and in Australia. The problem is, many of these have
bi-directional firewire (data can be transfered to computer) and this has
been vehemently opposed by the motion picture people (MPAA via the DMCA).
We may not see them here.

 

OK, a few months has gone by while I have been investigating options.

In summary,

1) I want to set up parents up with a system that will allow them to backup
their 60min and 120min Hi-8 camcorder tapes to DVD. It needs to be really
easy to use.

2) Previous responses to my inquiry recommended that I buy a combo DVD-
recorder/HDD home player for dubbing from a camcorder. I found these to be
too expensive in the US.

3) The easiest software that I found to fill this need is the Sony "Click
to DVD" software that is bundled with new VAIO units. My parents are open
to buying a new laptop, but at $2000, seems a little overkill. Plus, the
quality of transfer using this software is a question mark - I can find no
info on this software on-line, in terms of reviews or user comments.


My decision:

Sony has just released what they call their second-generation "DVDirect"
unit - model number VRD-VC20. At $350, and made for exactly my
requirements, it seems like the perfect solution. It avoids the
"complexity" of needing to use a computer, and with a hardware MPEG
converter, the concern about dropped frames completely goes away. I will
go with one of these units.

My parents have ~30 Hi-8 tapes, but can no longer find their ~15 year old
Sony Hi-8 camcorder. So, I'll need to get them a new camcorder, capable of
playing Hi-8 tapes, to feed into the VRD-VC20.


My question:

What is the best camcorder to get for playing Hi-8 tapes into the DVD
recorder (VRD-VC20)?

Important: My parents already have a miniDV camcorder. Therefore, playback
and output quality is the _only_ consideration for the Hi-8 playback unit.
I don't care about the quality of the recording or other features of the
Hi-8 unit - only good quality playback.

My original assumption was that a Digital8 camcorder that had Hi-8 playback
compatibility would be ideal. On Hi-8 playback, the camcorder would
convert to DV internally, and I could feed through i.Link to the VRD-VC20
for good quality. I also assume that the DVD-recoder and camcoder might
work better together through an i.Link connection, in terms of synchronized
starts and stops, although I can't be sure. After thinking about it,
though, it did occur to me that this would result in TWO format
conversions: first, analog-to-DV within the camcorder, and second, DV-to-
MPEG2/DVD within the DVD-recorder.

Would it be better to feed an analog Hi8 signal directly into the DVD-
recorder, and letting the DVD-recorder do the analog-to-MPEG2/DVD
conversion directly? This would avoid one digital conversion step, and I
assume that the DVD-recoder might do a better job of conversion from
analog, although I can't be sure...

I have looked at current Sony camcoders, both Hi8 and Digital8, and one
think I noticed is that NONE of them have a S-video output anymore. This
means that Hi-8 signals would be transfered through composite video cables.
In this case, it might be better to go with a Digital8 - I'm not sure.

So, please, I need some advice - what is the best way to feed Hi-8 tapes to
the VRD-VC20?

(The VRD-VC20 has inputs for i.Link, S-video, and composite video and
stereo audio.)

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

Before purchasing the VAIO with "C2DVD" as the users have renamed it, I
suggest that you go to: http://p200.ezboard.com/bunofficialsony and
read through some of the comments, kudos and criticisms about this
software, and the marketing strategy of Sony VAIO. Do a search on
"Click to DVD" and/or "C2DVD" and you may have some second thoughts
about how easy and fool-proof it is, as well as how tightly bound to
Sony you become when you buy a VAIO.

 

3) The easiest software that I found to fill this need is the Sony "Click

sandyprice wrote ...

Buying a $2000 for users who are not already computer-savvy
for use as a DVD recorder seems like a really unfortunate decision
particularly when you can buy a standalone DVD recorder for $149
that is as simple to use as a VCR.

I am a big Sony fan. Most of my video and a large part of my audio
equipment is Sony. I had a VAIO laptop for a couple years (before
it died) and I would not likely buy one again.

 

Guys, I agree with both of you. My point regarding the "Click to DVD" was
that I decided against it.

See my original post - right below my brief mention of considering VAIO, I
explain that I instead decided to go with a standalone DVD recorder. My
question is what is the best way to feed Hi8 tapes to it.

Sorry if my question was not clear.

 

"fsda" wrote ...

If they have only 20 tapes (IIRC?), they could borrow a camcorder
from one of their friends or neighbors. Or take/send them to a local
vendor who could dub them. Not worth buying something unless you
can find a Hi8 camcorder for cheap with a non-functioning camera
system.

 

Well, I have to agree with Richard on this point, since just transfering 20
hi8 tapes to dvd isn't worth
investing in a hi8 camcorder, and the sony dvd burner unit also at ~$350
might not justify it when you
can pay a transfer house to make the dvd's for a LOT less and save your
parents all the work.

Unless you want them to continue to have the ability to make dvd's but in
that case, does this Sony unit
also have a built in tuner? So they can at least use it as a vcr
replacement? I don't know about the second generation but
the one I had seen didn't it was stricly a device to transfer home video to
dvd easily with or without a PC.
No real use for them afterwards except maybe if they continue to use it to
make dvd's from their current miniDV tapes.
Just something else to consider,

AnthonyR.

 

Yes, we need to own something to play back the Hi8 tapes. These will be
transferred to DVD now, but who knows where in the future. Plus, with Hi8
going away soon, want own something that can play the tapes...

 

I want to be able to do this again, in the future, etc.

My parents have high def cable boxes with internal hard disk recorders.
We have no interest in a DVD recorder with a tuner - these are so much
of a pain to try to use with cable boxes that it's not worth it...

 

Not clear why you think you need to own something?
Hi8 going away soon would be a good reason to archive
them to a digital format like DV. But acquiring and then
maintaining a Hi8 player (especially after they are end-
of-life) for archival use at some point in the future seems
like a losing proposition for amateurs. YMMV

 

I have a cable box DVR also and a dvd standalone with HD and built in tuner,
not to mention every other form of PC burner, convertor and capture cards,
but I don't see how why a dvd stansalone with and extra feature as a tuner
would change or complicate hooking it up to record directly from a dv
camcorder in 1394 input or composite or rf for that matter?

In fact, one side benefit of having this tuner for me, is when my cable dvr
is recording 2 simultaneous programs, I can swith over to the standalone and
using an existing roof antenna either record or watch yet a third program
stream.

But maybe removing this feature will make things less complicated for folks,
I can see that.
It is difficult to understand all the different input options at some point.

AnthonyR.

 

Yes, it's an issue of less complicated being way more important than
features/$. BUT, I appreciate the advice, and likely will go now with a
DVD-recorder that does have a built-in tuner...

 

Having an old library of media with family videos, with are important to
us, with no way to re-transfer to a new format in the future from the
original tapes, makes me very nervous. Given the low cost of Digital8
camcorders right now, I'd much prefer to get one, use it now to transfer to
DVD, then store for future use down the line. E.g. in the future I may
want to do transfers to Blue-Ray, etc...

(I just can't stand the idea of having media with no way to play it. I've
got a small library of DAT tapes which I have no way to play or transfer
now since my DAT Walkman jammed up, for example. This I can tolerate, but
wouldn't be able to with the Hi-8 tapes...)

 

Hi fsda

Have you considered outsourcing the video conversion? There are many
companies that will do this for you. Considering the hassle of
converting those Hi8 tapes, you may save time and even overall cost by
outsourcing it.

Just my opinion.

Best Regards,
Gary Hendricks
http://www.desktop-video-guide.com