Copying Old VHS tapes thru TBC

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by Heynonny, Dec 9, 2011.

  1. Heynonny

    Heynonny Guest

    Probably the wrong place, but here I am.

    I have a bunch of old VHS tapes, my creations, copy protection is not
    an issue. Want to copy to digital files.

    I have an old time base corrector (a Nova 920sp) maybe 21 years old and
    17 years beyond any servicing, probably out of adjustment, though my
    experiments look pretty good.

    I have an industrial VHS deck (also hugely old but the output looks
    pretty darned good compared with newer VHS VCRs, despite a balky tape
    path post [the one that holds a paused tape aginst the video heads to
    read] that I have to retract manually or else the tape crinkles on
    Eject) with component out from which I'm feeding into the TBC and
    taking its component out to an MP4 USB dongle (simple Black Magic
    Design H.264 Recorder).

    My question is basically that I don't remember what some of the
    adjustments on the TBC are. And I don't have any scopes any more even
    if I could remember what to do.

    Dials: Video, Chroma, Setup, Hue: fine; I think I still have an eye
    adequate for those, maybe Setup not so much.

    But there is a sequence of screw adjusters that I can't relate to at
    all anymore:

    All headed "Reference":

    H0 (there's a score through the 0 to indicate zero). Horizontal?

    Then there's a heading "SC" which I think means sub carrier,
    with the sub-headings (and screw adjusters below):

    C F

    Not a clue.

    Fiddling with the H0 (zero), C and F screw settings produces no results
    that I can see. I have the feeling maybe they are irrelevant to the
    simple task I am doing.

    Any advice would be appreciated. If I'm in the wrong place and wasting
    all of your time but there happens to be someone here who can tell me
    where to look I'd appreciate it.

    If these settings are important, is there software I could run on a pc
    (or Mac, preferred) to emulate a vectorscope or whatever else I would
    need to calibrate the TBC

    Thanks!
     
    Heynonny, Dec 9, 2011
    #1
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  2. Heynonny

    Heynonny Guest

    Oops!

    Also a screw (step settings) labelled Y/C timing. When I use the TBC's
    internally-generated color bars I can see that the bars shift and look
    better-lined-up vertically with the selections (which doesn't make
    sense to me because what's it relatinng to?), but I think I really need
    color bars from the original material to align and the tapes I have do
    not have color bars (my bad). So what if anything dos this shifting
    mean and in the absence of color bars on the VHS tapes what do I do
    with theis selector screw?
     
    Heynonny, Dec 9, 2011
    #2
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  3. Heynonny

    Brian Guest

    I use to use time base correctors and video enhances to copy VHS tapes but
    then digital video recorders came along and it was a simple matter of using
    a digital video recorder to record from my VHS recorder then on to DVD.

    You need to ask yourself is it worth the time and effect to setup old
    equipment when you can buy a low cost digital video recorder that will
    allow you to copy your VHS tapes to DVD's which is likely to do a better
    job.
     
    Brian, Dec 10, 2011
    #3
  4. Heynonny

    ushere Guest

    think you'll find brian's right. however, if you're going to use the tbc
    you really do need to use it with a scope. there 'was' a number of pc
    waveform / vectorscope products around about a decade or so ago, but ALL
    need hardware interface.

    DataVideo TBC-100 TBC PCI Card

    i used to have a bank of DPS TBC-IV correctors sitting in an old amiga 2000
     
    ushere, Dec 10, 2011
    #4
  5. Heynonny

    Heynonny Guest

    Thanks. You're talking about those combo VHS/DVD units? I've borrowed
    and tried a few of those over the years and the results were terrible.
    The only model I remember specifically was a Sony RDR-VX530, that was
    the worst of a bad lot. There was a real cheap Walmart-type thing
    (Goldstar?) that was better, but still pretty bad.

    I did better with a standalone JVC HM-D40000U D-VHS, taking the
    component straight out to a computer through the BlackMagic USB dongle.
    That was better, but the deck simply couldn't keep the old, stretched
    tape signal stable. Mis-tracking, etc.

    I'm getting hugely better results with this old tank of an industrial
    VHS deck (Panasonic 7500A) through the tbc, even unadjusted. I'm just
    haunted by the fear that with the settings all degraded over time I'm
    not getting the best the tbc is capable of.

    Or are you talking about something higher-end? I still know a lot of
    people in the business, the retail end, so I could probably borrow just
    about anything if I had a specific make and model of something to ask
    for.
     
    Heynonny, Dec 10, 2011
    #5
  6. Heynonny

    GMAN Guest


    Sure, that will work if all he is copying is his own home camcorder movies.
    But If his movies are protected or are slightly aged then running thru a TBC
    is a no brainer.

    That old pro equipment he owns is most likely ten times the quality of
    machine than the combo VCR'DVD dubbing deck is you suggest is.
     
    GMAN, Dec 10, 2011
    #6
  7. Heynonny

    GMAN Guest


    Funny thing with your setup is that it mirrors mine to an extent. I own the
    same Panasonic AG-7500A SVHS deck and I also own a Nova 900s TBC.


    I always run the 7500A thru a TBC then to my standalone Sony RDR-GX7
    deck.


    I retire the Nova in favor of my recently aquire Hotronics AR71 TBC



    The others here just dont understand that to get a really good dub, you need
    to stabilize the video on these old tapes.
     
    GMAN, Dec 10, 2011
    #7
  8. Heynonny

    Heynonny Guest

    I found that "Adobe Creative Suite Masters Collection" has an included
    application called "OnLocation" that has a simulated wave form and
    vectorscope and other scopes. Works great! I'd recommend it highly if
    you could find it sold separately for a reasonable price, but
    apparently OnLocation isn't available ala carte.

    As best I can figure out, none of the screw settings on the Nova 920S
    have any effect on the simple task of copying from VHS to digital.
    Apparently they relate to reference signals, mixing different sources,
    etc. It seems that only the major "dials," which except for setup I can
    pretty much do by eye, are significant. And despite years of storage,
    all were basically in range measured against the color bars and only
    minor tweaking is needed to compensate for the characteristics of the
    individual VHS tapes.

    ALL VHS TAPES should have had standard color bars recorded for future
    reference. People like me who didn't do that should have been sent to
    jail.

    But I am moving forward, with pretty good results, including one old
    commercial VHS tape of a program I love that has never since been
    available in any format, that had such mangled tracking that I could
    never transfer it watchably. Through the good (though ancient) VHS deck
    and the TBC it's spot on!
     
    Heynonny, Dec 11, 2011
    #8
  9. Heynonny

    Heynonny Guest

    That's not a completely correct statement as I think about it. The Y/C
    offset has to be right.

    Also, looking at some footage, I'm picking up a little video noise on
    VHS tapes apparently recorded with narrow heads (like a lot of the
    commercial tapes; what were they thinking!!! I guess just using cheap
    mechanisms in their duplication banks). The 7500A has what should have
    been standard SP wide heads so there's some overlap into blank tape
    that turns into noise. Not a huge deal, most people wouldn't see it but
    unfortunately I do.

    Also even though I've connected the 7500A DOC out to the TBC DOC in,
    and connecting video-video using dub connectors, which is the best
    quality connection possible between the two devices and should support
    DOC, in I'm still having some dropouts on some tapes so I may not be
    completely understanding that. It may be that, despite the shoddiness
    of newer equipment, they do mask over dropouts better.

    GMAN, did the Nova 900 have a DOC in? Did you just connect the 7500A
    DOC out to the 900 DOC in or is there something more complicated going
    on?
     
    Heynonny, Dec 11, 2011
    #9
  10. Heynonny

    Brian Guest

    No Heynonny, I was not referring to the combo VHS/DVD units. I was
    referring to today's equipment. Many people have gone from a VHS recorder
    to a Digital DVD recorder (it has a hard drive, DVD recorder and a TV
    tuner). Most have build in enhancers, stabilisers, video noise filters etc
    to handle old VHS tapes.
    If I'm want to copy an old VHS tape I connect my VHS player to my Digital
    video recorder then copy a VHS tape to the hard drive of the digital video
    recorder. I then can edit the recording such as removing bits of the
    recording that I don't want and add some chapter marks then I put a blank
    DVD disc in the digital video recorder and make a DVD recording.
    This is not specialised equipment but is domestic equipment sold in most TV
    shops.
     
    Brian, Dec 11, 2011
    #10
  11. Heynonny

    Heynonny Guest

    I guess I've not kept up with the times. I had a Replay when that was
    new, Blue something or other, I've played with Tivo's, Humax's,
    Hauppagues (spell?). There is newer stuff that's better than a
    good-quality VHS deck feeding a good-quality TBC, feeding a
    good-quality digitizer for what I'm trying to do? I can get anything if
    I just have a make and model number.
     
    Heynonny, Dec 11, 2011
    #11
  12. Heynonny

    sgordon Guest

    There are a few late-model VHS decks made for getting the most out
    of older VHS tapes (such as the Panasonic AG-1980 or the JVC 9911).
    They're still pricey even on eBay, but I managed to buy one of the
    Panasonics brand new for around $250. Piped through a fullframe TBC
    such as the AVT-8710 or similar (around $100), straight into the
    computer through an ADVC-100 box (SVHS for the video). That gives
    about as good and stable a base from which to work as I've seen.
    After that, I like the tools in VirtualDub and AviSynth for trying
    to clean up specific video glitches.


    : Probably the wrong place, but here I am.

    : I have a bunch of old VHS tapes, my creations, copy protection is not
    : an issue. Want to copy to digital files.

    : I have an old time base corrector (a Nova 920sp) maybe 21 years old and
    : 17 years beyond any servicing, probably out of adjustment, though my
    : experiments look pretty good.

    : I have an industrial VHS deck (also hugely old but the output looks
    : pretty darned good compared with newer VHS VCRs, despite a balky tape
    : path post [the one that holds a paused tape aginst the video heads to
    : read] that I have to retract manually or else the tape crinkles on
    : Eject) with component out from which I'm feeding into the TBC and
    : taking its component out to an MP4 USB dongle (simple Black Magic
    : Design H.264 Recorder).

    : My question is basically that I don't remember what some of the
    : adjustments on the TBC are. And I don't have any scopes any more even
    : if I could remember what to do.

    : Dials: Video, Chroma, Setup, Hue: fine; I think I still have an eye
    : adequate for those, maybe Setup not so much.

    : But there is a sequence of screw adjusters that I can't relate to at
    : all anymore:

    : All headed "Reference":

    : H0 (there's a score through the 0 to indicate zero). Horizontal?

    : Then there's a heading "SC" which I think means sub carrier,
    : with the sub-headings (and screw adjusters below):

    : C F

    : Not a clue.

    : Fiddling with the H0 (zero), C and F screw settings produces no results
    : that I can see. I have the feeling maybe they are irrelevant to the
    : simple task I am doing.

    : Any advice would be appreciated. If I'm in the wrong place and wasting
    : all of your time but there happens to be someone here who can tell me
    : where to look I'd appreciate it.

    : If these settings are important, is there software I could run on a pc
    : (or Mac, preferred) to emulate a vectorscope or whatever else I would
    : need to calibrate the TBC

    : Thanks!
     
    sgordon, Dec 11, 2011
    #12
  13. Heynonny

    GMAN Guest

    That Ancient panasonic AG SVHS deck is one many TV stations used in their
    inhouse system. Its as good as it got back then. I love my deck.
     
    GMAN, Dec 11, 2011
    #13
  14. Heynonny

    GMAN Guest

    Yes , it had DOC in but i have never went that way with my connections. Npone
    of my tapes had issues with dropouts so never needed Drop Out Compensation to
    be done on them.



    Im going caveman and just using the Y/C to Y/C connections. You'll get better
    dubs with that then you will with the composite you are using
     
    GMAN, Dec 11, 2011
    #14
  15. Heynonny

    GMAN Guest

    As good as that AG-1980 is it is no where near as good of quality or build to
    the AG-7500A that the OP and I own.

    We are talkking Pro gear vs semi pro home gear.
     
    GMAN, Dec 11, 2011
    #15
  16. Heynonny

    sgordon Guest

    : As good as that AG-1980 is it is no where near as good of quality
    : or build to the AG-7500A that the OP and I own.
    : We are talkking Pro gear vs semi pro home gear.

    I know that. But for playing back poor quality tapes, there are many
    who believe that the AG-1980 is better.
     
    sgordon, Dec 11, 2011
    #16
  17. Heynonny

    Heynonny Guest


    The "dub" connector from the 7500A, which as I said I'm using for
    video, _is_ a form of Y/C. I think the only difference between it and
    normal Y/C is that the dub connector bypasses some of the internal
    electronics of the 7500A.

    Once in the TBC, I send "component" video to the computer, not
    "composite," which I would never use for video at any stage of the
    process.
     
    Heynonny, Dec 12, 2011
    #17
  18. Heynonny

    Brian Guest

    My DVD Recorder is likely to be out of date but I use a Pioneer DVR-720H-s
     
    Brian, Dec 12, 2011
    #18
  19. Heynonny

    Heynonny Guest

    I have totally failed to express myself clearly and I apologize.
     
    Heynonny, Dec 12, 2011
    #19
  20. Heynonny

    GMAN Guest

    Gotcha, like i said i am doing it caveman style via S-video. Ill try the dub
    connector sometime and see how it goes.
     
    GMAN, Dec 14, 2011
    #20
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