D80 noise versus Rebel XTi noise at 1600 ISO

Discussion in 'Digital SLR' started by RichA, Oct 12, 2006.

  1. RichA

    RichA Guest

    RichA, Oct 12, 2006
    #1
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  2. RichA

    frederick Guest

    frederick, Oct 12, 2006
    #2
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  3. RichA

    RichA Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > RichA wrote:
    > > JPEGs.
    > >
    > > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412683
    > >
    > > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412661
    > >
    > >
    > > This situation is a bit sad because the D80 is 100x better in-terms of
    > > ergonomics. It is a much more comfortable camera to shoot with and
    > > hold.
    > >

    > http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/newreadarticle.asp?id=4860
    > The reviewer there reached a different conclusion.


    Interesting, certainly not what I saw. I wonder if those test charts
    are RAW?
    Another thing, skin is definitely Nikon's high ISO enemy. The kind of
    noise it has at high ISO is brutal on skin tones that are underexposed,
    compared to the Canon.
     
    RichA, Oct 12, 2006
    #3
  4. RichA

    Bill Guest

    "frederick" <> wrote in message
    news:1160613271.236304@ftpsrv1...
    > RichA wrote:
    >> JPEGs.
    >>

    > http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/newreadarticle.asp?id=4860
    > The reviewer there reached a different conclusion.


    Conclusions? Rich didn't have any conclusions, nor any comparative
    data, nor any equalized testing criteria, and the crops could be from
    anything regardless of his claims (since he is known for providing
    false data and still has false images and claims on his site).

    As usual, Rich is just being a troll and tossing out crap to get
    people to discuss things so he can sit back and watch the antics. This
    is known as being a troll or an instigator. I really don't understand
    why people still respond to the twit.

    And anyone who has read the numerous reviews of the Nikon D80 and
    Canon XTi already know Rich is not adding anything what-so-ever and
    his crops are contrary to what respected sites have already concluded,
    to wit I offer this quote from DPreview in their ISO conclusions:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page18.asp

    "At ISO 1600 the D80's gray patch looks the cleanest, followed by the
    EOS 400D and DSLR-A100."
     
    Bill, Oct 12, 2006
    #4
  5. RichA

    frederick Guest

    RichA wrote:
    > frederick wrote:
    >> RichA wrote:
    >>> JPEGs.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412683
    >>>
    >>> http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412661
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> This situation is a bit sad because the D80 is 100x better in-terms of
    >>> ergonomics. It is a much more comfortable camera to shoot with and
    >>> hold.
    >>>

    >> http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/newreadarticle.asp?id=4860
    >> The reviewer there reached a different conclusion.

    >
    > Interesting, certainly not what I saw. I wonder if those test charts
    > are RAW?
    > Another thing, skin is definitely Nikon's high ISO enemy. The kind of
    > noise it has at high ISO is brutal on skin tones that are underexposed,
    > compared to the Canon.
    >

    There is bugger all difference between any of the 10mp aps-c dslrs.
    Without NR they're all noisier than the 6 and 8mp cameras. The canon is
    the only one with a different sensor - yet there seems much more
    difference between a D80 and an a100. It all looks like a test of NR
    and/or demosaicing algorithms in-camera or out of camera rather than
    sensor noise, so it's only perhaps of interest to those few who would
    shoot jpeg at high iso and use in camera NR rather than shoot raw and
    pp. If you're fussy enough to bother comparing ex-camera jpegs with
    such a fine-toothed comb, then you should probably be shooting raw anyway.
     
    frederick, Oct 12, 2006
    #5
  6. RichA

    RichA Guest

    Bill wrote:
    > "frederick" <> wrote in message
    > news:1160613271.236304@ftpsrv1...
    > > RichA wrote:
    > >> JPEGs.
    > >>

    > > http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/newreadarticle.asp?id=4860
    > > The reviewer there reached a different conclusion.

    >
    > Conclusions? Rich didn't have any conclusions, nor any comparative
    > data, nor any equalized testing criteria, and the crops could be from
    > anything regardless of his claims (since he is known for providing
    > false data and still has false images and claims on his site).
    >


    B.S. Which images? Name them, or slink off like the last one who said
    this and was called on it.

    > As usual, Rich is just being a troll and tossing out crap to get
    > people to discuss things so he can sit back and watch the antics. This
    > is known as being a troll or an instigator. I really don't understand
    > why people still respond to the twit.


    All I did was shoot pictures under real-world conditions. If you
    like, I can send you about
    six JPEG images from both cameras, including Nikon RAWs. Would you
    like them?

    > And anyone who has read the numerous reviews of the Nikon D80 and
    > Canon XTi already know Rich is not adding anything what-so-ever and
    > his crops are contrary to what respected sites have already concluded,
    > to wit I offer this quote from DPreview in their ISO conclusions:
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page18.asp
    >
    > "At ISO 1600 the D80's gray patch looks the cleanest, followed by the
    > EOS 400D and DSLR-A100."


    What does "cleanest" mean, exactly?
     
    RichA, Oct 12, 2006
    #6
  7. RichA

    THO Guest

    In article <>,
    "RichA" <> wrote:

    > JPEGs.
    >
    > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412683
    >
    > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412661
    >
    >
    > This situation is a bit sad because the D80 is 100x better in-terms of
    > ergonomics. It is a much more comfortable camera to shoot with and
    > hold.


    And how many former film shooters even care? How many times have most of
    us loaded ISO 1600 film into our cameras? If we are not going to shoot
    at ISO 1600, why should we care?
     
    THO, Oct 12, 2006
    #7
  8. RichA

    RichA Guest

    THO wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > "RichA" <> wrote:
    >
    > > JPEGs.
    > >
    > > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412683
    > >
    > > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412661
    > >
    > >
    > > This situation is a bit sad because the D80 is 100x better in-terms of
    > > ergonomics. It is a much more comfortable camera to shoot with and
    > > hold.

    >
    > And how many former film shooters even care? How many times have most of
    > us loaded ISO 1600 film into our cameras? If we are not going to shoot
    > at ISO 1600, why should we care?


    A few, at least. Noise is always front and centre in discussions about
    DSLRs.
     
    RichA, Oct 12, 2006
    #8
  9. Bill wrote:

    > I offer this quote from DPreview in their ISO conclusions:
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page18.asp
    >
    > "At ISO 1600 the D80's gray patch looks the cleanest, followed by the
    > EOS 400D and DSLR-A100."


    That's not what I see. I see the D80 image has been averaged the most
    to reduce noise. Look at the detail in the hair and crown.
    Not even close, yet they should be. The D80 ISO 100 image shows
    more detail, and as ISO goes up, that detail goes away.
    Not in the Sonly or Canon. A different raw converter would
    show different results. So what we are seeing is not true
    sensor performance, but raw converter averaging.

    Roger
     
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Oct 12, 2006
    #9
  10. RichA

    RichA Guest

    RichA, Oct 12, 2006
    #10
  11. RichA

    Bill Guest

    "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <>
    wrote in message news:...
    > Bill wrote:
    >
    >> I offer this quote from DPreview in their ISO conclusions:
    >>
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page18.asp
    >>
    >> "At ISO 1600 the D80's gray patch looks the cleanest, followed by
    >> the EOS 400D and DSLR-A100."

    >
    > That's not what I see. I see the D80 image has been averaged the
    > most
    > to reduce noise. Look at the detail in the hair and crown.
    > Not even close, yet they should be. The D80 ISO 100 image shows
    > more detail, and as ISO goes up, that detail goes away.


    I agree there is less detail, and sharpness is a point of contention
    in other shots.

    But the question is noise at 1600 using the default settings, and in
    that regard the Nikon is equal to or better than the Canon.

    It's a very minor point though as both are very good and Nikon has
    improved the high ISO performance to similar levels of the Canon
    models. Canon doesn't really have the big edge in high ISO they once
    had, which I think is a good thing for everyone involved.

    Megapixel counts and ISO performance is the same, which may explain
    their sudden jump into other features like a sensor cleaner, and dust
    reference imaging in order to stay ahead of the competition in the
    "features war".
     
    Bill, Oct 12, 2006
    #11
  12. RichA

    Bill Guest

    "RichA" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >> > http://www.dcview.com.tw/article/newreadarticle.asp?id=4860
    >> > The reviewer there reached a different conclusion.

    >>
    >> Conclusions? Rich didn't have any conclusions, nor any comparative
    >> data, nor any equalized testing criteria, and the crops could be
    >> from
    >> anything regardless of his claims (since he is known for providing
    >> false data and still has false images and claims on his site).


    Dang it...how many user IDs do you have?

    > B.S. Which images? Name them, or slink off like the last one who
    > said
    > this and was called on it.


    Slink off? I don't think so.

    Perhaps you think people are not familiar with Google Groups and the
    archiving of newsgroup posts?

    I posted here about your fake images in this thread:

    http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.p...194c/b5d02570cc8f4730?&hl=en#b5d02570cc8f4730

    You responded with a line of bull and then I asked you to explain the
    pixel discrepency among other things in this thread:

    http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.p...194c/b5d02570cc8f4730?&hl=en#b5d02570cc8f4730

    Please note that you NEVER RESPONDED to my inquiries.

    By the way I don't have the default option of not archiving this post,
    so everyone will see it through Google just like the one above.

    Moving along to your current images:

    PART I:
    Canon 30D at 1600 ISO.jpg

    It's not from a 30D (pixel size is proof), it's not 1600 ISO (not
    enough grain), there is no exit to back it up, and based on my own use
    of a 17-40 which I own, it looks like the FOV angle is not from a
    17-40 as you claimed. More likely a 24mm or 28mm lense.

    PS - I saw someone else asking about the 30D pixel size in a comment
    on your site a few days ago, but you removed their comment.
    Why is that?


    PART II:
    Rebel XTi 1600 ISO.jpg

    Where's the exif and original image so we can compare?

    PART III:
    Nikon D80 1600 ISO.jpg

    Where's the exif and original image so we can compare?

    Are these images real?
    How can we believe you?

    >> As usual, Rich is just being a troll and tossing out crap to get
    >> people to discuss things so he can sit back and watch the antics.
    >> This
    >> is known as being a troll or an instigator. I really don't
    >> understand
    >> why people still respond to the twit.

    >
    > All I did was shoot pictures under real-world conditions. If you
    > like, I can send you about
    > six JPEG images from both cameras, including Nikon RAWs. Would you
    > like them?


    Yes I would like to see them, as we all would.

    Please post them on your website along side the others with full exif
    data so we can all compare them fairly.

    And no you're not getting my email address so you can send it off to
    spammers. I'm not as think as you dumb I am.

    :)

    >> And anyone who has read the numerous reviews of the Nikon D80 and
    >> Canon XTi already know Rich is not adding anything what-so-ever and
    >> his crops are contrary to what respected sites have already
    >> concluded,
    >> to wit I offer this quote from DPreview in their ISO conclusions:
    >>
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page18.asp
    >>
    >> "At ISO 1600 the D80's gray patch looks the cleanest, followed by
    >> the
    >> EOS 400D and DSLR-A100."

    >
    > What does "cleanest" mean, exactly?


    Read the link I posted...it's all there for your learning pleasure.

    Or would you prefer to banter the definition of "cleanest" until you
    think it matches your own definition?

    Take your time thinking about a response...
     
    Bill, Oct 12, 2006
    #12
  13. RichA

    Bill Guest

    "RichA" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Bill wrote:
    >
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page18.asp
    >>
    >> "At ISO 1600 the D80's gray patch looks the cleanest, followed by
    >> the
    >> EOS 400D and DSLR-A100."

    >
    > They also said this:
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page29.asp
    >
    > Conclusion - Cons
    >
    > * High sensitivity (ISO) noise levels higher than Canon EOS 400D


    But not at 1600 ISO which is the subject of your original post. Don't
    try to change the rules or twist the argument away from what you
    originally started.

    I agree that the Canon is better at 400-800. But at 1600 the Nikon is
    better, and at 3200 the Canon isn't even in the running since it can't
    do 3200.
     
    Bill, Oct 12, 2006
    #13
  14. Bill wrote:

    > "RichA" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>Bill wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page18.asp
    >>>
    >>>"At ISO 1600 the D80's gray patch looks the cleanest, followed by
    >>>the
    >>>EOS 400D and DSLR-A100."

    >>
    >>They also said this:
    >>http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page29.asp
    >>
    >>Conclusion - Cons
    >>
    >> * High sensitivity (ISO) noise levels higher than Canon EOS 400D

    >
    >
    > But not at 1600 ISO which is the subject of your original post. Don't
    > try to change the rules or twist the argument away from what you
    > originally started.
    >
    > I agree that the Canon is better at 400-800. But at 1600 the Nikon is
    > better, and at 3200 the Canon isn't even in the running since it can't
    > do 3200.
    >
    >

    There is no point for iso 3200 on ANY current camera. The
    unity gain ISO is 1600 and below on all current DSLRs.
    Unity gain = the gain at which one A/D bit = 1 electron.
    There is no point in digitizing less than 1 electron
    (you can do that in post processing ;-).

    Roger
     
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Oct 12, 2006
    #14
  15. Bill wrote:

    > "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <>
    > wrote in message news:...
    >
    >>Bill wrote:

    >
    >>> I offer this quote from DPreview in their ISO conclusions:
    >>>
    >>>http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/page18.asp
    >>>
    >>>"At ISO 1600 the D80's gray patch looks the cleanest, followed by
    >>>the EOS 400D and DSLR-A100."

    >>
    >>That's not what I see. I see the D80 image has been averaged the
    >>most
    >>to reduce noise. Look at the detail in the hair and crown.
    >>Not even close, yet they should be. The D80 ISO 100 image shows
    >>more detail, and as ISO goes up, that detail goes away.

    >
    > I agree there is less detail, and sharpness is a point of contention
    > in other shots.
    >
    > But the question is noise at 1600 using the default settings, and in
    > that regard the Nikon is equal to or better than the Canon.


    I disagree. It is not that clear cut. One could smooth the
    canon image, for example, to reduce the detail to that
    of the nikon image, and the noise will be suppressed.

    Roger
     
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Oct 12, 2006
    #15
  16. RichA

    Tom Ross Guest

    On 11 Oct 2006 17:28:28 -0700, "RichA" <> wrote:

    >JPEGs.
    >
    >http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412683
    >
    >http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68412661
    >
    >
    >This situation is a bit sad because the D80 is 100x better in-terms of
    >ergonomics. It is a much more comfortable camera to shoot with and
    >hold.


    You should be able to shoot at a respectable ISO setting if you use
    the flash. It's that pop-up thingy on top of the camera.

    Or reshoot at ISO 400 using the same exposure settings, and let
    Photoshop correct the underexposed image. Duplicate the layer and
    change the Mode to Screen, and repeat as needed.


    (If this was a feeble attempt at a comparison, repeat the test. Only
    this time, make sure the focal length and exposure settings are the
    same. Also, post the ENTIRE image, not a crop.)

    HTH
    HAND


    TR
     
    Tom Ross, Oct 12, 2006
    #16
  17. RichA

    Bill Guest

    "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <>
    wrote in message news:...
    >
    >> I agree there is less detail, and sharpness is a point of
    >> contention in other shots.
    >>
    >> But the question is noise at 1600 using the default settings, and
    >> in that regard the Nikon is equal to or better than the Canon.

    >
    > I disagree. It is not that clear cut. One could smooth the
    > canon image, for example, to reduce the detail to that
    > of the nikon image, and the noise will be suppressed.


    What if you turned up the sharpness to match the default Canon level
    or level-matched both cameras?

    Would that balance things out or would there still be less resolution
    (detail) in the Nikon image?
     
    Bill, Oct 12, 2006
    #17
  18. RichA

    Bill Guest

    "Tom Ross" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > (If this was a feeble attempt at a comparison, repeat the test. Only
    > this time, make sure the focal length and exposure settings are the
    > same. Also, post the ENTIRE image, not a crop.)


    What are you saying, that it wasn't fair?
     
    Bill, Oct 12, 2006
    #18
  19. Bill wrote:
    > "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <>
    > wrote in message news:...
    >
    >>>I agree there is less detail, and sharpness is a point of
    >>>contention in other shots.
    >>>
    >>>But the question is noise at 1600 using the default settings, and
    >>>in that regard the Nikon is equal to or better than the Canon.

    >>
    >>I disagree. It is not that clear cut. One could smooth the
    >>canon image, for example, to reduce the detail to that
    >>of the nikon image, and the noise will be suppressed.

    >
    >
    > What if you turned up the sharpness to match the default Canon level
    > or level-matched both cameras?
    >
    > Would that balance things out or would there still be less resolution
    > (detail) in the Nikon image?


    Bill,
    A couple of things: 1) turning up the "sharpness" does not
    actually improve resolution. It increases accutance, edge
    contrast. 2) Turning up the "sharpness" would enhance the noise.

    I'm not trying to imply one is better than another, as I
    really can't tell. What we can tell is that the manufacturers
    are trying to hide the noise with smoothing of the images.
    It seems that all the manufacturers are doing it, even canon.
    It is a matter of degree. And it also depends on which
    raw converter one uses, and what the settings on the converter
    are. The same converter could behave differently on different
    camera's files. It's kind of a mess and evaluating tiff
    (the processed raw into tiff files) is not the
    way to really see what is happening at the sensor.

    Roger
     
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Oct 12, 2006
    #19
  20. RichA

    cjcampbell Guest

    cjcampbell, Oct 12, 2006
    #20
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