Decisions, decisions....

Matej Artac put fingers to keyboard and typed...

Originally I was also leaning towards the 'big S' as I had been pushed in
that direction by friends who had more experience of digital video. In
fact for the first couple of days' research, I was only looking at Sony
units like thew pc109, hc40, hc85, pc330 and hc1000.

Once I started considering different manufacturers (and had a shortlist of
about 20 cams) Canon did come high up on my list. I was particularly drawn
to the colour reproduction capability using the RGB filters to separate the
colours.

http://tinyurl.com/5wuf6


The MVX25i was at the top of my list as i thought it would give a good
image without the cost of a 3 (decent sized) ccd cam, however an online
review of the NTSC variant of the NV-GS400 made me think that the
difference in quality really was worth it.

http://tinyurl.com/4x8wc

TBH I chose one of the bottom, middle and top of my price range - I was
told at the showroom that "you or I wouldn't notice the difference in image
quality between the pc109 and the gs400". I wasn't sure how seriously to
take this advice. Personally I feel that after editing and burning to a DVD
at a decent bitrate and viewing on a large tv I WOULD notice the difference
between a single 1/5" CCD and 3 1/4.7" ones. The canon has a 1/3.6"
2.2Mpixel CCD and combined with the colour reproduction, I felt it would be
a decent compromise. Bearing in mind this is the same company that makes
the XL1S - by all accounts a top-notch cam I felt I couldn't go wrong.

Having never had a camcorder (never mind a digital one) before, I have
nothing to go by short of buying a miniDV tape shooting some scenes in
various conditions and viewing results on DVD. Is the Panny REALLY that
much better in terms of quality when viewed on tv? Is it worth the extra
300 quid?

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

TBH my next step was to look at some magazine reviews - any
recommendations? I have looked at Tony's site in the past and found he put
out a lot of useful information for the beginner (I wouldn't put myself in
that category as I do have some technical knowledge about digital video) so
i wouldn't knock it it is hady for someone to have the basics all arranged
in one place.

As far as 'a diatribe of personal views' is concerned - he makes it clear
that is is all based on personal experience and is his own opinion. I would
be interested to know where your views differ from tony's regarding my own
situation.

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

Should have read this before responding to your earlier post! I'll
certainly have a look to see if they have covered the models I'm
interested in.

Really? Fair enough they would use different video standards, but in
terms of relative video quality I would have thought that it would give
you a good idea of what to expect from PAL models.

Fair point.

<snip>

 

Tony Morgan put fingers to keyboard and typed...

Point taken mate, but I chose one from each price range to find out
whether the difference in quality (video and features) is (1) noticable
BETWEEN the ranges in real world terms and (2) justifies the price
difference.

One of the reasons I chose PRC direct (no, they're not paying me for this
plug!) is that their showroom is a five minute walk from where I work. I
would have the opportunity to have a play around with the cams before
purchase.

Agreed about the LCD quality as it would help my sisters use the thing,
but personally I would prefer to shoot through the viewfinder if it gives
a sharp enough image to be able to use the manual focus of the Canon and
the Panny.

With the largish CCD 1/3.6" and the colour reproduction capabilities of
the Canon, I feel it would give a decent picture. Having had no practical
experience of digital video I would have to seek the judgement of someone
who has had a chance to shoot with it. Is there anywhere I could download
sample clips (ideally not compressed out of all recognition!)?

TBH I prolly won't be using tripods to start with and as my siters will
also be using the cam, image stabilisation is high on my list. With the
larger CCDs, I realise that there is no longer as much image degredation
as there used to be with electronic (digital) image stabilisation, but
the Panny's Optical system does appeal.

Personally I wouldn't go for the smaller cams for the same reason (I only
put it in because my sisters liked the look and size of it!). As far as
the Sonys are concerned, they were on my list but I felt the Canon to be
a better buy.

That is where the other posters come in! Anyone had experience of the
MVX25i or similar Canon?

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

I'd have to agree with you about the LCD, I'm not exactly at the stage
where I'll be carrying monitors around! Which cams have a decent
adjustable, sharp viewfinder?

Again, point taken but I'm not quite at that stage yet, I'm purely a mobie
cameraman at the moment - out of interest how much do steadycams cost
nowadays? ;-)

Actually, all joking aside, after I typed that last sentence, I had to have
a look at steadycams on Google and this cropped up:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~johnny/steadycam/

Any thoughts?

<snip, not wanting to get involved in the middle of a flame war ;-) >

 

Matej Artac put fingers to keyboard and typed...

Unless I see some sample footage, I'll have to shoot some of my own -
I'll probably go to the stor when I'm free and do that, it's the only way
I'll know for sure.

Again, I'll have to spend some time playing about with them.

 

John Russell put fingers to keyboard and typed...

I did (briefly) consider cams such as the Canon XM2, XL1s and the Sony VX
models, however the price and the looks on my sisters faces when I showed
them scuppered that idea!

I agree and unfortunately a lot of consumers look at all the big numbers
and lose focus of what's really important.

 

You might have to send off for a (paid for) 'reprint' of the test.

No, NTSC and PAL are of a totally different quality, one reason why the USA
broadcasters have been going down the HDTV route over recent years and we
haven't I suspect. BTW. NTSC pre dates the PAL standards by quite a few
years.

 

Price is a valid point, but the "looks on my sisters faces" are not (easy
for me to say, I'm not related !..), never buy a camera because it looks
'kool', some of the biggest piles of crap are often dressed up to look
'kool' by the marketing men - and this isn't just limited to video.

 

The 109 does not have a true 16:9 mode. It crops the top and bottom of
the image, to get the correct shape.

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

Any idea where I could find lists of contents (on the web or otherwise) to
see wich issues cover which models/model ranges i'm interested in. Ideally
I would like to read a 'head-to-head' article covering pros and cons of
several models.

Sorry, I prolly didn't make myself clear. What I meant was that the
relative performace of NTSC models compared with other NTSC models would
give you an idea of how their PAL counterparts would perform against other
PAL models. e.g. A Canon GL2 is better than a Optura 40 therefore you would
expect the XM2 to give the MVX25i a similar trouncing.

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

I've already explained that to them and they understand that point along
with being wary of silly digital zoom figures, but somehow I don't think
they'll be happy wandering around with a large 80's style shoulder mounted
cam! Unfortunately as they will be using it as well, size (and to a (very)
small degree, style) has to be a factor in my decision.

If I bring home something like an XL1S, XM2 or VX2100 (much as I'd love to)
I'd have to face their wrath and become the proud owner of a new arsehole -
and that's not something I really want to go through, I'm still recovering
from last time! ;-)

 

Dave R put fingers to keyboard and typed...

Ok, didn't realise that - which cams would you recommend that give a
true/anamorphic 16:9 without going into pro/prosumer prices.

 

Camcorder User magazine has a list of available / relevant reviews that they
have carried out - http://www.camuser.co.uk/reviews/ might be of some use to
you :~)

Oh right, I see, I'm not sure if it follows though....

 

Just remind them who is buying it (assuming you are of course) and if they
don't like it they can go and buy their own 'kool toy' ! :~)

<grins, ducks and runs>

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

Cheers for the link, I'll have a good look.

I really would have thought it would, apart from video system aren't most
of the important bits the same? If not, I may have to rethink my choices
having looked at some of the PAL reviews.

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

You obviously haven't met my sisters! P

 

I hope it is, but I didn't even know that page existed until you made me go
deeper into than their home page !...

The important buts are the video system etc, IMO every other thing about a
video camera (or camcorder) is secondary as if it doesn't do what it's meant
to then what it handles or looks like is rather pointless IYSWIM.

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

None of the models I'm interested were on it - never mind eh! I still might
have a little look at similar cams.

Agreed but by 'video system' I meant in terms of lines of res (625/50 vs
525/60) output to the tv. What I was trying to say (in a really round-about
way) was that by looking at reviews of NTSC cams (which I've been basing my
choices on) I could guage what equivalent PAL cam to choose.

 

:::Jerry:::: put fingers to keyboard and typed...

None of the models I'm interested were on it - never mind eh! I still might
have a little look at similar cams.

Agreed but by 'video system' I meant in terms of lines of res (625/50 vs
525/60) output to the tv. What I was trying to say (in a really round-about
way) was that by looking at reviews of NTSC cams (which I've been basing my
choices on) I could guage what equivalent PAL cam to choose.