[email protected] and rodinal: what happened?

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Gianni Rondinini, Mar 31, 2005.

  1. good morning.

    first of all, please excuse my poor english: i hope you'll understand
    what happened to me and will be able to help me.

    few days ago i developed 2 rolls of delta400 120, one of which having
    been exposed at 400 and one at 1600.

    the one rated at the nominal 400 asa was developed in rodinal 1+25, 20
    degrees, continuous agitation for the first minute and then 5 seconds
    every 30, for the time suggested on the massive dev chart i found on
    the net. it was fixed with 4 minutes using an ornano fixer and then
    treated for a couple of minutes with agepon. the negative seems very
    good to me and i'm happy of the overall quality.

    then i washed *very well* the tank and prepare for the second
    development.

    the one pushed 2 stops --at 1600 asa, then-- was developed in rodinal
    1+16, 21 degrees, continuous agitation for the first minute and then 5
    seconds every 30, for 20 minutes. i guessed these 20 minutes by myself
    reasoning on some development times i got for other developers on the
    dev chart. i am *sure* the temperature was perfectly constant --both
    in time and "in space"-- because i filled my sink with water and
    immersed the tank after every agitation --up to the cap of the tank,
    without risking that water could enter in the tank (you know, paterson
    tanks...)--.
    and unfortunately no, i didn't have any tmax or xtol at that moment
    --i know rodinal isn't that great for pushed films--: i received both
    of them 2 days later.
    i fixed the development with 8 minutes in ornano fixer and then left
    in agepon for some more minutes.
    the film shows a reasonable detail and good overall contrast --then i
    guess development time wasn't bad--, but it's not uniform: along all
    the film i see it's lightly lighter in the center part --around 50+%
    of the film-- and it's darker in the extreme part --around 25-% of the
    film, along each border--. neither the colour is uniform: the lighter
    part tends to be yellowish and the darker is a little bit violet.

    can you please tell me if you have an idea of what happened and where
    the problem may be? i recycled fixer and agepon as i --and many
    friends of mine-- usually do --it's a matter of pollution more than
    money--.

    i wouldn't want to miss something important when i'll develop the
    delta3200 @12500 we've talked about --with tmax or xtol, this time--.

    thank you in advance
     
    Gianni Rondinini, Mar 31, 2005
    #1
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  2. The color suggests that the film was not completely
    fixed. I don't know what kind of fixer Ornano is. If its
    "rapid" fixer, at film strength, 8 minutes should be long
    enough unless the fixer is exhausted. Try re-fixing the film
    in _fresh_ fixer and see if the color is removed. Then
    re-wash it.
    The non-uniformity may be from the remaining halide and
    may be cured by re-fixing. It may be that both the
    non-uniform development and the lack of fixing on parts of
    the film were caused by something interfering with the flow
    of the solutions in the tank. The fact that one roll was
    perfect and the next not suggests that perhaps the second
    roll was not loaded into the tank correctly, its pretty hard
    to tell now if that is what happened.
    Usually, a two stop push requires about double the
    "normal" development time. Two stops is just about the limit
    for films not designed for pushing. Either of the Kodak
    T-Max developers, Xtol, or Microphen, are good developers
    for push processing but Rodinal should have worked OK.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Mar 31, 2005
    #2
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  3. I will bet 10 Lire the film was not agitated (or agitated very
    little) in the fix. As part of the film is fixed I would say the fix
    was fresh enough and the time long enough for proper fixing. Give
    the tank a shake every minute while fixing and the problem should
    go away. The yellow may be a side effect from a too long fixing time
    in a fixer with too much silver in it - but that is just an ignorant
    guess.

    Refix with agitation, rinse, agitate again in the "agepon" (I am assuming
    this is a fixer removal agent). Wash in flowing 23C water for 10 minutes.

    The yellow may stay forever, though. It may be dichoric fog -- Richard
    Knoppow is the local expert on dichoricism -- and may be able to
    shed some light.

    "You'll wonder where the yellow went when you fix your film with Hypodent."

    Might toothpaste remove dichoric fog?
     
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Mar 31, 2005
    #3
  4. YO!
    A new special recipe to suggest for curing dichroic fog?
    wooow!
    :D




    Ciao,
    Stefano Bramato
     
    Stefano Bramato, Mar 31, 2005
    #4
  5. Nicholas, I think you may be right about the lack of
    agitation in the fixer although the poster gives his
    agitation for development it not certain that he did the
    same for the fixer. Fixer needs agitation as much as
    developer.
    Dichroic fog is a thin coating of silver deposited on
    the film surface. It is yellow by transmitted light and
    greenish by reflected light. It can also give a rainbow or
    oil slick look. Dichroic fog is mostly from very exhausted
    fixing baths, especially if a lot of developer has carried
    over into them. I've seen it on very outdated film but don't
    know the cause there. It can be removed by bleaching it in
    rapid acid fixer with added Citric acid. About 15
    grams/liter of citric should be added to film strength rapid
    fixer. Its slow enough to be controllable but will bleach
    some of the image silver if left for too long.
    Agepon is a wetting agent similar to Photo-Flo.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Apr 1, 2005
    #5
  6. I've never tried toothpaste for dichroic fog but its a
    mild abrasive which works wonders for polishing plastic
    parts and metals where you don't want to remove too much
    material. Abrasive reducers were quite common for
    photography in the past. Kodak put up an abrasive reducer
    and it was common to use stove polish (if you are old enough
    to remember coal or wood stoves you know what this is). I
    would try bleaching with rapid fixer to which some citric
    acid has been added before using toothpaste for removing
    dichroic fog, but it might work and certainly could be used
    to reduce very dense areas for retouching. Not quite as
    silly as it sounds.
    OTOH, I think the problem originally described in this
    thread is probably not dichroic fog but unfixed halide and
    perhaps also some anti-halation or sensitizing dye left
    behind due to the fixer not having uniform contact with the
    film.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Apr 1, 2005
    #6

  7. THanks for help me in growing in photography Mr. Knoppow.
    WOW!!


    Ciao,
    Stefano Bramato
     
    Stefano Bramato, Apr 1, 2005
    #7
  8. hi all.

    i wasn't able to reply to you before now; please excuse me, but i had
    some problems of usenet access --my news server moved to a pay-per-use
    policy and paying is taking some days--.

    some more details:
    1. nicholas won 10 lire :), because no, i didn't make any agitation
    during fix; i didn't realize it is necessary and i didn't remember my
    friends did it; about final rinsing --after fixing and before wetting
    agent--, water is so expensive in my area that i begun to use the
    recommended ilford rinse procedure: 1 rinse with half a liter; 1 rinse
    with half a liter after 5 agitations; 1 rinse with half a liter after
    10 agitations; 1 rinse with half a liter after 20 agitations: fast and
    not very water consuming.
    2. yes, ornano universal fixer is a rapid one, but i'm not impressed
    by it. i'll get back to the agfa rapid fixer next time

    i'm very proud to tell you that re-fixing with some fresh fixer solved
    the yellowish "stripe" in the middle of the negative. then:
    1. it's clear that rodinal worked fine even with a 2-stop pushed film
    --i posted the data to digitaltruth guys--; i guess at this point that
    all of that was born by a bad fixing.
    2. the film seems now to be a little bit clearer everywhere: is it
    possible or is it just an impression?
    3. i see that xtol and tmax seem to be better for high speed films:
    are there "big" differences also between fixers? i'm talking about
    agfa rapid one and tmax fixer, for example

    one last thing: richard, i deleted your last email: can you please
    re-send it to me?

    bye and thank you very much.
     
    Gianni Rondinini, Apr 4, 2005
    #8
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