Did Mr. Tapeguy ever return with data to support claims?

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by P.C. Ford, May 8, 2006.

  1. P.C. Ford

    P.C. Ford Guest

    Or is that the reason he's not around anymore?
     
    P.C. Ford, May 8, 2006
    #1
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  2. P.C. Ford

    Specs Guest

    He has posted since being asked to supply data but alas has failed to
    deliver the aforementioned.

    Check out these data I've been able to locate:

    Brand Coercivity Retentivity
    Fuji 120kA/m 450mT
    Pana PQ 120kA/m 450mT
    Maxell DVME60 120kA/m 450mT
    Sony PR/EX 105kA/m 500mT
    Sony HDV 125kA/m 550mT
    Pana MQ 120kA/m 500mT
    Sony DVCAM 105kA/m 500mT

    My understanding is that retentivity is the more important figure.

    All the above data was found by googling. I tried to find several
    references to back up each data but it was not always possible. I did
    however come across several posts from Mr. Tapeguy reciting his mantra of PQ
    is the better tape. The figures above would suggest otherwise at the very
    least one shouldn't overly worry about which tape brand or type one uses.
    Just treat them with respect and there shouldn't be any problems.

    I am going to continue to use Sony cheapos.

    For someone making a living out of selling tapes I am surprised that Mr.
    Tapeguy wasn't able to post tape data to support his claims.
     
    Specs, May 8, 2006
    #2
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  3. P.C. Ford

    Mr. Tapeguy Guest

    No, I've been busy and don't always have time to argue in the
    newgroups. As I said, our user experience is more important than data
    provided by the manufacturers. However, as soon as I have time I will
    try to get some data.

    In the meantime, here's is the latest information from Panasonic which
    I'm sure you will regard as "sales hype"...I will check for statistics
    if they are available.

    Panasonic Advanced Master AMQ media provides unprecedented performance
    for DVCAM-compatible mode (15 micron track width), HDV 1080i / DV SP
    Mode (10 micron track width), and/or HDV 720p / DV LP Mode (6.67 micron
    track width):

    Preventative vs. Head Clogs
    Less Dropouts: up to 30% fewer that Sony DVCAM
    Significantly Extended Head Life: 5x Greater than Sony
    +1.2dB Higher Signal Output vs. Sony DVCAM
    Next Generation S-AME (Super-Advanced Metal Evaporation) Technology
    Found in the Most Critical Data Media
    High-Precision ABS Resin/Anti-Static Cassette Design

    Craig

    http://www.pro-tape.com
     
    Mr. Tapeguy, May 8, 2006
    #3
  4. P.C. Ford

    Mr. Tapeguy Guest


    "Wasn't able" is not the case. My time available to debate in
    newsgroups comes and goes. My "mantra" of using Panasonic tape is
    based largely on user experience. I will research it when I have time.


    My presence in the newsgroups is intended to help when people have a
    question. All too often anything that's said is challenged and I find
    myself in a debate. If I want to get into a debate I'll troll the
    political newsgroups.

    I'd be curious what your sources were but when I have time, I'll check
    it out and as I said all along, use whatever you like. Our experience
    is that professional videographers prefer Panasonic professional
    overall. You may feel differently so use whatever you like.

    I don't make my living selling just tape and unlike the old days, spec
    sheets are not routinely provided for everything. I'm glad you were
    able to find some data though, even though those statistics don't tell
    the whole story. Nowhere is dropout mentioned (arguably the most
    critical spec) nor anything about the components, which is nearly
    impossible to document.

    By the way, our prices are very good so I can give us a shameless plug
    for great deals even if I haven't given you the empirical data you
    think I should have at my fingertips.

    Craig

    http://www.pro-tape.com
     
    Mr. Tapeguy, May 8, 2006
    #4
  5. P.C. Ford

    Specs Guest

    Well it would help if you had data to back up you claims instead of
    re-publishing Panasonic marketing BS. That's why you end up in a debate
    because your claims don't hold up to inspection.

    I am genuinely interested to see if there is a significant difference
    between brands and grades within the brands. But I've got to see some hard
    facts or some serious problems with the tapes I use before I change my
    buying habbits.
    On the data I found by googling and my own experiences it seems a fool's
    game to overly worry about the media one is recording to. It would seems
    how one treats that media is far more important. In my professional
    experience.

    I just entered "brand name" and "tape name" coercivity and retentivity into
    google and cross referenced what I could. Sorry I neglected to post the
    reference URLs.
    I think there are far too many variables to make it worth worrying about.
    Treat your tapes and camera with respect and you won't go far wrong.
     
    Specs, May 8, 2006
    #5
  6. P.C. Ford

    Mr. Tapeguy Guest

    According to whom? What about signal-to-noise, carrier-to-noise,
    dropout and the "intangibles" ? According ot your info, there is NO
    reason to buy EX vs. PR. That's because some of the critical
    information isn't contained in the specficiations.

    What inspection is that? Nothing has been shown to prove otherwise,
    least of all real-world use. Most of the newsgroup questions I deal
    ask for people's experience with usage. I would think you would be
    aware that specifications aren't everything. For starters, who do you
    think writes them? If you think Panasonic's marketing BS is, well "BS"
    then perhaps you'd better research who writes specifications for
    Panasonic tape...which is why I rely only partially on any of that
    information and more on what feedback from in-house use and customer
    feedback. The best use of manufacturer's published specs is in
    relating one of their own tapes to another. I don't want to get into
    the insulting accusations that you seem to feel the need to throw but I
    really think you can't see the forest for the trees here, and
    especially since you seem to feel that any specification that is
    published is better than one that isn't. Dropout is probably the
    single most highly critical factor in recording and in the old days
    spec sheets routinely had the tapes' average dropout specification
    listed. Here it is conspicuosly absent.

    Head life is also something we should all be concerned about and every
    tech I've dealt with along with various websites has found Panasonic to
    be less abrasive. That can be thousands of dollars of savings along
    the way. I realize there is a tech referenced in this exchange who
    feels differently.
    The best way to determine that is not a spec sheet but the experience
    of people who use them, yourself included. I tell people every day, it
    doesn't matter to me what you buy. I recommend what works best based
    on our experience and customer feedback, along with being aware of what
    the manufacturers publish about their products.
    No need - this stuff is commonly available. And I agree with your
    first point.
    Agreed; however if you want to take no chances, particularly on
    something that can't be shot again, the higher grade tapes do offer
    much lower dropout and have better mechanisms, besides being more
    carefully selected. I don't think it matters for routine stuff. For
    shoots that can't be redone and "mission critical" I think they are the
    way to go particularly when the prices are comparable; i.e. Sony PR vs.
    Panasonic PQ or Sony EX vs. Panasonic MQ.

    Craig

    http://www.pro-tape.com

    Mini DV Tapes from $1.95 - No Gimmicks - Free Shipping Available
    Racks - Rewinders - Head Cleaners - Accessories

    Adobe - Apple - Avid - Canon - Digidesign - JVC - Panasonic - Sony
     
    Mr. Tapeguy, May 8, 2006
    #6
  7. P.C. Ford

    Specs Guest

    My understanding of physics says retentivity is the more important factor of
    the two. Its pretty rich for someone to make note of the sparcity of
    critical information when they have steadfastly refused/incapable/unwilling
    to produce the mearest hint of information.
    Why do you septics always seem to think someone is throw insulting comments
    at you when others write in a nonambiguous and direct way?

    How was that measured? By rubbing it on their chins? Sorry don't buy it.
    Presumably you can quote coefficient of friction values for Panasonic tape
    vs other manufacturers?
    There you go we're back to square one. I have not seen any clear evidence
    that one should use Sony EX over PR let alone use another brand altogether.
    It seems like a reflex action to recommend a more expensive tape without
    providing any data to prove it is a worthwhile endeavour.

    The very fact that manufacturers' data is not easily obtainable is telling.

    The next time I get a dropout in the middle of something important you can
    say I told you so but until then I'll remain blissfully ignorant but
    contented knowing that I'm not being conned into buying something that I
    don't need.
     
    Specs, May 8, 2006
    #7
  8. P.C. Ford

    nappy Guest

    Very funny. Interpretation: Foot was stuck in mouth.. had to take a while to
    get it out.
     
    nappy, May 8, 2006
    #8
  9. P.C. Ford

    Mr. Tapeguy Guest

    < yawn >
     
    Mr. Tapeguy, May 9, 2006
    #9
  10. P.C. Ford

    Mr. Tapeguy Guest

    Specs wrote:

    I don't know why you feel you are uniquely qualified to determine which
    data is relevant and which is not. Of course, this is a typical
    prejudice I find from people who think that just because I am involved
    in sales I don't know anything. The "sales BS" and "salesman" tag from
    people like Nappy (you're in great company).

    Actually, I have two degrees, the second of which is in Radio-TV-Film.
    I worked as a sports editor at the NBC affiliate before starting my own
    production company. I have been working with video tape for over 20
    years. Did I get out my microscope and measure the particles on the
    tape? No. Do I have experience working with different formats of
    video tape? Yes. As far as I'm concerned, the feedback from hundreds
    of customers means more than any of the specifications. They are only
    there for reference.

    No one is trying to convince you to change your buying habits. I've
    said over and over again "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I merely
    report what information I have access to and that includes material
    from the manufacturers and feedback. I fail to see why there is
    something wrong with that.
    This is certainly a critical part of the process. That does not mean
    it is the only criteria. Many of the specifications I would consider
    important have not been mentioned by anyone but me. I guess they just
    aren't available from Google.
     
    Mr. Tapeguy, May 9, 2006
    #10
  11. P.C. Ford

    Mr. Tapeguy Guest

    Specs wrote:
    ..
    Your understanding of physics? Are you a tape engineer? Are you
    involved in the manufacturing process? Where did you gain this
    understanding? Can you document that retentivity is more important?
    Please produce some data to substantiate this.

    While you're brushing up on your physics you might try consulting a
    dictionary to improve your spelling. As for not providing "the mearest
    (SIC) hint of information," this is simply a lie. I haven't refused
    to put out anything. You have simply refused to accept any of the data
    I put forth. The specs found on Google are put out by the
    manufacturers and are no more or less relevant than any other data.
    Furthermore, an opinion formed based on actual experience is at least
    as worthy as your Googlespecs, most of which are for the same tape
    anyway.
    Septics? Does that mean I'm from the sewer or were you trying to spell
    "skeptic?"

    Regardless, your statements are simply not true. And you are
    insulting. I have not failed to provide data; I have simply failed to
    provide data that YOU accept. You don't have to challenge every
    single thing I say and when you label everything as "marketing BS" I
    would have to say that I am not the "septic"

    No, we sand furniture with it.. What kind of absurd statement is that?
    People have been measuring headwear with different tapes for years.
    It has primarily to do with the fineness of the particles.

    No I'll go find some data on that. You do the same. Yours will be
    scientifically sound and mine will be marketing BS. See how this
    works?

    You'll notice that I have never said "you should buy EX because it's
    better" and that's because I never have. It is generally understood
    that the difference is the selection process. Sorry I don't have a
    chart or graph on that.

    No I grant you Sony could be lying through their teeth and just
    laughing at all the suckers stupid enough to spend more $ on the same
    tape.

    As for Panasonic professional, there are intangibles also that you
    refuse to acknowledge. They know well (as does Sony) that the
    professional crowd is more critical. Make an inferior product and
    you'll never see that customers business again. And they tell their
    friends. While I don't trust the manufacturers completely I do see a
    difference in the products and as I said, I've been doing this for 20
    years.

    Don't change what you're using. Don't blame others if they prefer
    something else. Use whatever criteria you want but stop acting as if
    you are the BE all END all soothsayer for what specifications are
    worthy and what aren't.

    Craig

    http://www.pro-tape.com
     
    Mr. Tapeguy, May 9, 2006
    #11
  12. P.C. Ford

    nappy Guest

    you said it.

    The "sales BS" and "salesman" tag from
    Awesome company. I'd rather be in Specs' company than yours.





    Whooopie do da day. I wouldn't call that a real degree.. sorry.
    Ok. so you were an editor.
     
    nappy, May 9, 2006
    #12
  13. P.C. Ford

    nappy Guest


    translation: I can't muster up a legitimate debate poibnt so I will find
    something to nit pick.

    Tapedick. You really ought to **** off.
     
    nappy, May 9, 2006
    #13
  14. P.C. Ford

    Specs Guest

    Before deciding on a different career path I was a senior engineer in the UK
    nuclear industry. My field of expertise was electromagnetic compatibility.
    Thanks for spell checking my post. You seem to have found your level.
    Septic Tank.....
    Oh yes you are.
    Complete bollocks
    Panasonic were making ALL the noises regarding dropouts when recording HDV.
    The internet has not been set ablaze by tens of thousands of people
    complaining about dropouts with HDV. Panasonic are bullshit artists. Mugs
    like you, Mr. Tapeshit, eat it up and spread your unqualified and
    unquantifiable BS if you think it'll get you some tape sales to the wedding
    crowd to put in their shitty JVCs.

    Come back when you know what you are talking about. If its taken you 20
    years to get this far I doubt whether I'll hear from you again.

    Do yourself a favour and start your education here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney_Rhyming_Slang
     
    Specs, May 9, 2006
    #14
  15. Yank!

    -m-

    (oh, this wasn't a rhyming slang quiz?)

    Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
     
    Martin Heffels, May 9, 2006
    #15
  16. P.C. Ford

    Specs Guest

    We have a WINNER!!!

    :)
     
    Specs, May 9, 2006
    #16
  17. What did I win? A pack of Pana tapes?

    :)

    -m-

    Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
     
    Martin Heffels, May 9, 2006
    #17
  18. P.C. Ford

    Specs Guest

    Yes, especially good for sanding chair legs!

    :)
     
    Specs, May 9, 2006
    #18
  19. P.C. Ford

    Mr. Tapeguy Guest

    Look Specs (or whatever your real name is), here's how it is. You're
    seem to be an intelligent guy. I gave the data I had available and I'm
    not telling you to switch brands. Why don't we rise above insutls and
    just accept that there is a differece of opinion on what qualifies as
    worth considering, shake hands and leave it to that. I have no desire
    to engage in flame wars and I have been sucked into with certain
    newsgroup trolls who have nothing to offer other than insults. I'd
    like to keep it intelligent, productive and useful for others and
    clearly we have passed that point.

    I think there are legitimate reasons to consider using a higher grade
    tape in critical applications; you aren't convinced. That's OK. Let's
    leave it at that and have any further discussions in a civil and
    respectful tone. I know that's not possible for everyone on the 'net
    but I'll bet it is for you.

    Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

    Craig

    http://www.pro-tape.com
     
    Mr. Tapeguy, May 9, 2006
    #19
  20. P.C. Ford

    nappy Guest

    Allright.. that was a little harsh.. I meant 'sod off'
     
    nappy, May 9, 2006
    #20
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