DIY Rapid Fix

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by geo, Jul 8, 2005.

  1. geo

    geo Guest

    Can someone throw a Rapid Fixer formula at me. Preferably a non-smelly,
    non-hardening type. Thanks.

    --
    "In a very real and terrifying sense, our Government is the CIA and the
    Pentagon, with Congress reduced to a debating society. Of course, you can't
    spot this trend to fascism by casually looking around. You can't look for
    such familiar signs as the swastika, because they won't be there. We won't
    build Dachaus and Auschwitzes; the clever manipulation of the mass media is
    creating a concentration camp of the mind that promises to be far more
    effective in keeping the populace in line. We're not going to wake up one
    morning and suddenly find ourselves in gray uniforms goose-stepping off to
    work. But this isn't the test. The test is: What happens to the individual
    who dissents? In Nazi Germany, he was physically destroyed; here, the
    process is more subtle, but the end results can be the same.

    I've learned enough about the machinations of the CIA in the past year to
    know that this is no longer the dreamworld America I once believed in. The
    imperatives of the population explosion, which almost inevitably will lessen
    our belief in the sanctity of the individual human life, combined with the
    awesome power of the CIA and the defense establishment, seem destined to
    seal the fate of the America I knew as a child and bring us into a new
    Orwellian world where the citizen exists for the state and where raw power
    justifies any and every immoral act. I've always had a kind of knee-jerk
    trust in my Government's basic integrity, whatever political blunders it may
    make. But I've come to realize that in Washington, deceiving and
    manipulating the public are viewed by some as the natural prerogatives of
    office. Huey Long once said, 'Fascism will come to America in the name of
    anti-fascism.' I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will
    come to America in the name of national security."

    --Jim Garrison's Interview with Playboy Magazine, October 1967
     
    geo, Jul 8, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertisements

  2. geo

    dan.c.quinn Guest

    Use unadulterated ammonium thiosulfate. Dilute to your
    satisfaction but be sure to use enough in the solution
    volume needed to do the job.
    I've measured the ph at 7.5 +/- a tenth or two. I doubt
    you'll detect any oder. Dan
     
    dan.c.quinn, Jul 9, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. geo

    nailer Guest

    unadulterated AT has tendency for oxidation and decomposition. It
    should be supplemented by addition of small amount of sodium sulfite.


    On 8 Jul 2005 20:15:15 -0700, wrote:

    *RE: geo wrote:
    *>
    *> Can someone throw a Rapid Fixer formula at me.
    *> Preferably a non-smelly, non-hardening type. Thanks.
    *>
    *
    * Use unadulterated ammonium thiosulfate. Dilute to your
    *satisfaction but be sure to use enough in the solution
    *volume needed to do the job.
    * I've measured the ph at 7.5 +/- a tenth or two. I doubt
    *you'll detect any oder. Dan
     
    nailer, Jul 9, 2005
    #3
  4. geo

    geo Guest

    Cookbook has an acid hardening rapid fix ATF-5. If I leave out the acids &
    potassium alum will that make a good rapid fix?

    ammonium thiosulfate
    sodium sulfite
    acetic acid
    boric acid
    potassium alum
     
    geo, Jul 9, 2005
    #4
  5. geo

    Nick Zentena Guest


    Why not make TF-3?

    http://www.jackspcs.com/tf3.htm

    Ammonium thiosulfate (57-60%) 800 ml
    Sodium Sulfite (anhy) 60 g
    Sodium Metaborate 5 g
    Distilled water to make 1000 ml

    Nick
     
    Nick Zentena, Jul 9, 2005
    #5
  6. geo

    geo Guest

    Thanks Nick. Isn't the Kodak Flexicolor formula for C-41 very similar?
    Couldn't that be used 1:3 for B&W film & paper?

    --
    "In a very real and terrifying sense, our Government is the CIA and the
    Pentagon, with Congress reduced to a debating society. Of course, you can't
    spot this trend to fascism by casually looking around. You can't look for
    such familiar signs as the swastika, because they won't be there. We won't
    build Dachaus and Auschwitzes; the clever manipulation of the mass media is
    creating a concentration camp of the mind that promises to be far more
    effective in keeping the populace in line. We're not going to wake up one
    morning and suddenly find ourselves in gray uniforms goose-stepping off to
    work. But this isn't the test. The test is: What happens to the individual
    who dissents? In Nazi Germany, he was physically destroyed; here, the
    process is more subtle, but the end results can be the same.

    I've learned enough about the machinations of the CIA in the past year to
    know that this is no longer the dreamworld America I once believed in. The
    imperatives of the population explosion, which almost inevitably will lessen
    our belief in the sanctity of the individual human life, combined with the
    awesome power of the CIA and the defense establishment, seem destined to
    seal the fate of the America I knew as a child and bring us into a new
    Orwellian world where the citizen exists for the state and where raw power
    justifies any and every immoral act. I've always had a kind of knee-jerk
    trust in my Government's basic integrity, whatever political blunders it may
    make. But I've come to realize that in Washington, deceiving and
    manipulating the public are viewed by some as the natural prerogatives of
    office. Huey Long once said, 'Fascism will come to America in the name of
    anti-fascism.' I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will
    come to America in the name of national security."

    --Jim Garrison's Interview with Playboy Magazine, October 1967
     
    geo, Jul 10, 2005
    #6
  7. geo

    jo.sto Guest

    Yes, Flexicolor Fixer is a bit more acidic I think. I use Agfa
    FX-Universal (pH=7.5approx) which is also made for colour processing.
    It has very minimal smell (slight ammonia). Here in Australia it is
    labelled with black and white dilutions for film and paper. About 1+4
    from memory.
     
    jo.sto, Jul 10, 2005
    #7
  8. geo

    geo Guest

    I checked the ingredients and it has Ammonium Sulfate instead of
    Thiosulfate. Does that make a difference?
     
    geo, Jul 10, 2005
    #8
  9. geo

    Nick Zentena Guest


    Where did this info come from? Here is one MSDS

    http://siri.org/msds/f2/bkk/bkkpd.html

    Ingred Name:THIOSULFURIC ACID, DIAMMONIUM SALT (AMMONIUM THIOSULFATE)
    CAS:7783-18-8
    RTECS #:XN6465000
    Fraction by Wt: 45-50%

    Ingred Name:ETHYLENEDIAMINE-TETRAACETIC ACID (EDTA) (SARA III)
    CAS:60-00-4
    RTECS #:AH4025000
    Fraction by Wt: 0-1%
    EPA Rpt Qty:5000 LBS
    DOT Rpt Qty:5000 LBS

    Ingred Name:SODIUM SULFITE (2:1)
    CAS:7757-83-7
    RTECS #:WE2150000
    Fraction by Wt: 10-15%

    Ingred Name:AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE (SARA III)
    CAS:1336-21-6
    RTECS #:BQ9625000
    Fraction by Wt: 0-1%
    EPA Rpt Qty:1000 LBS
    DOT Rpt Qty:1000 LBS

    Nick
     
    Nick Zentena, Jul 10, 2005
    #9
  10. geo

    geo Guest

    I was talking about Flexicolor. On the label it says Ammonium Sulfite (not
    Sulfate as I had said) but according to
    http://www2.siri.org/msds/f2/cky/ckyry.html (great site by the way) it has
    Ammonium Sulfite AND Ammonium Thiosulfate. So back to the original question:
    is it usable as a B&W film & paper fixer (1:3)? It's a lot cheaper than B&W
    rapid fixers I've seen.


    EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY -- 846 2681,KODAK FLEXICOLOR SM TANK FIXER/C-41SM --
    6750-01-443-3344
    =======================================================
    MSDS Safety Information
    =======================================================
    FSC: 6750
    NIIN: 01-443-3344
    MSDS Date: 09/13/2000
    MSDS Num: CKYRY
    Tech Review: 02/13/2001
    Product ID: 846 2681,KODAK FLEXICOLOR SM TANK FIXER/C-41SM
    Responsible Party
    Cage: 19139
    Name: EASTMAN KODAK COMPANY
    Address: 343 STATE STREET
    City: ROCHESTER NY 14650 US
    Info Phone Number: 716-722-5151/(800) 242-2424
    Emergency Phone Number: 716 722-5151
    =======================================================
    Item Description Information
    =======================================================
    Item Manager: S9I
    Item Name: FIXING BATH, PHOTOGRAPHIC
    Specification Number: NONE
    Type/Grade/Class: NONE
    Unit of Issue: BT
    Quantitative Expression: 10000000039LI
    UI Container Qty: 3.9 LITERS
    Type of Container: BOTTLE
    =======================================================
    Ingredients
    =======================================================
    Cas: 7732-18-5
    RTECS #: ZC0110000
    Name: WATER
    % low Wt: 75.
    % high Wt: 80.
    Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED
    OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
    ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED
    Ozone Depleting Chemical: N
    ------------------------------
    Cas: 7783-18-8
    RTECS #: XN6465000
    Name: AMMONIUM THIOSULFATE
    Percent by Wt: 10.
    Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED
    OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
    ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED
    Ozone Depleting Chemical: N
    ------------------------------
    Cas: 1762-95-4
    RTECS #: XK7875000
    Name: AMMONIUM THIOCYANATE
    = Wt: 8.
    Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED
    OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
    ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED
    EPA Rpt Qty: 5000 LBS
    DOT Rpt Qty: 5000 LBS
    Ozone Depleting Chemical: N
    ------------------------------
    Cas: 7757-83-7
    RTECS #: WE2150000
    Name: SODIUM SULFITE
    % low Wt: 1.
    % high Wt: 5.
    Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED
    OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
    ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED
    Ozone Depleting Chemical: N
    ------------------------------
    Cas: 10196-04-0
    Name: AMMONIUM SULFITE
    < Wt: 1.
    Other REC Limits: NOT PROVIDED
    OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
    ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED
    EPA Rpt Qty: 5000 LBS
    DOT Rpt Qty: 5000 LBS
    Ozone Depleting Chemical: N
     
    geo, Jul 10, 2005
    #10
  11. geo

    Nick Zentena Guest

    Is this working strength?


    That 10% seems too low. This MSDS

    http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd0001a/wcd01aa7.htm

    Ingredient Name AMMONIUM THIOSULFATE
    CAS Number 7783188
    NIOSH Number XN6465000
    Proprietary NO
    Percent 50-55

    Shows 50-55%. That sounds more normal for the concentrate.

    I'd suggest asking Kodak but nothing wierd jumps out at me. It's even
    cheaper if you buy the big bottle-)

    I think I figured out the 10%. You looked at KODAK FLEXICOLOR SM.
    That's premixed stuff. It's not the normal Flexicolor. The above link I gave
    with the 50% is the normal stuff. You don't want the SM stuff. You want the
    stuff you have to mix up yourself.


    http://www.adorama.com/KKFCFR5G.html

    Normal stuff that you can dilute.

    http://www.adorama.com/KKFCSMF.html

    The premixed SM stuff.

    Nick
     
    Nick Zentena, Jul 10, 2005
    #11
  12. geo

    nailer Guest

    it doesa not make sense, you must have thiosulfate as complexing
    agent, sulfate would act as a mild hardener (providing it is
    aluminium), you should have sulfite as a conservant.
    where did sulfate come from?



    **> Yes, Flexicolor Fixer is a bit more acidic I think. I use Agfa
    *> FX-Universal (pH=7.5approx) which is also made for colour processing.
    *> It has very minimal smell (slight ammonia). Here in Australia it is
    *> labelled with black and white dilutions for film and paper. About 1+4
    *> from memory.
    *
    *I checked the ingredients and it has Ammonium Sulfate instead of
    *Thiosulfate. Does that make a difference?
    *
     
    nailer, Jul 11, 2005
    #12
  13. geo

    nailer Guest

    *I was talking about Flexicolor. On the label it says Ammonium Sulfite (not
    *Sulfate as I had said) but according to
    *http://www2.siri.org/msds/f2/cky/ckyry.html (great site by the way) it has
    *Ammonium Sulfite AND Ammonium Thiosulfate. So back to the original question:
    *is it usable as a B&W film & paper fixer (1:3)? It's a lot cheaper than B&W
    *rapid fixers I've seen.
    *

    correct, it does make sense to have both.
     
    nailer, Jul 11, 2005
    #13
  14. Kodak MSDS snipped...

    It should work fine for B&W. Ammonium thiosulfate is the
    "rapid" fixer, standard fixing baths use Sodium thiosulfate.
    I don't know why Ammonium sulfite was chosen but its
    function will be the same as sodium sulfite, namely to
    preserve the thiosulfate and to prevent staining by carried
    over developer. I would use a water rinse rather than an
    acid stop bath this this or the Agfa Universal fixing bath.
    There is little different between standard fixing baths
    and rapid fixing baths other than the use of Ammonium
    thiosulfate instead of Sodium thiosulfate. Fixing baths for
    color processes are usually either neutral pH or slightly
    alkaline to prevent decolorizing of the dyes.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Jul 11, 2005
    #14
  15. geo

    dan.c.quinn Guest

    Maybe 10% by weight? I over-looked the fact that
    most reuse their fixer; into the tank or tray
    then back into a bottle.
    I use fixer one-shot; no need for preservative.
    A. Thio. fix is kept at or near concentrate strength
    untill just prior to it's final dilution at time of use.
    Although slower, S. Thiosulfate ANHYDROUS can be
    mixed from the solid just prior to use. Keep a bottle
    of the ANHYDROUS on the shelf. I think it will last
    for many years.
    It is the S. or A. Thios that do the fixing. The Ph
    runs near neutral for the S. and the mid 7s
    for the A. Dan
     
    dan.c.quinn, Jul 11, 2005
    #15
  16. geo

    Lloyd Erlick Guest

    On 11 Jul 2005 15:24:08 -0700,

    July 11, 2005, from Lloyd Erlick,

    It will indeed last for years. I buy sodium
    thiosulfate anhydrous in hundred pound bags;
    last time, I bought two bags. I transfer the
    powder to the kind of heavy 15 or 20 liter
    polyethylene pails restaurants put out in the
    garbage. The lids are tight, they have to be
    put on with a mallet.

    Mine lasts at least four-five years this way.
    I'm sure longer is easily possible.

    regards,
    --le
    ________________________________
    Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
    voice: 416-686-0326
    email:
    net: www.heylloyd.com
    ________________________________
    --
     
    Lloyd Erlick, Jul 11, 2005
    #16
  17. geo

    geo Guest

    I notice it says 1:4. Should I use that dilution instead of 1:3?
     
    geo, Jul 12, 2005
    #17
  18. geo

    nailer Guest

    On 11 Jul 2005 15:24:08 -0700, wrote:

    --------------------------
    * Maybe 10% by weight? I over-looked the fact that
    *most reuse their fixer; into the tank or tray
    *then back into a bottle.

    10% of sulfite is too much, 10-50 g/L, it is not that critical, and
    the cost is minimal.


    * I use fixer one-shot; no need for preservative.
    *A. Thio. fix is kept at or near concentrate strength
    *untill just prior to it's final dilution at time of use.
    * Although slower, S. Thiosulfate ANHYDROUS can be
    *mixed from the solid just prior to use. Keep a bottle
    *of the ANHYDROUS on the shelf. I think it will last
    *for many years.

    If you keep AT as a concentrate, you should use sulfite as an
    anti-oxidant. Otherwise thiosulfate will decompose. You don't mix with
    sulfite if you store thiosulfates in powdery form. There is no
    difference between crystalline and anhydrous sodium thiosulfate, just
    10 molecules of water. Both dissolve well in water. I prefer
    crystalline, because it does not clump. Crystalline ST is as stable as
    anhydrous, providing stored in closed jar.

    * It is the S. or A. Thios that do the fixing. The Ph
    *runs near neutral for the S. and the mid 7s
    *for the A. Dan
    *
    *>
    *> On 8 Jul 2005 20:15:15 -0700, wrote:
    *>
    *> *RE: geo wrote:
    *> *>
    *> *> Can someone throw a Rapid Fixer formula at me.
    *> *> Preferably a non-smelly, non-hardening type. Thanks.
    *> *>
    *> *
    *> * Use unadulterated ammonium thiosulfate. Dilute to your
    *> *satisfaction but be sure to use enough in the solution
    *> *volume needed to do the job.
    *> * I've measured the ph at 7.5 +/- a tenth or two. I doubt
    *> *you'll detect any oder. Dan
     
    nailer, Jul 12, 2005
    #18
  19. geo

    dan.c.quinn Guest

    I think you meant to say 5 molecules. I've only
    read of it as being the penta hydrate.
    Both dissolve well but the penta will chill the
    water; not the thing to do just prior to use. Dan
     
    dan.c.quinn, Jul 12, 2005
    #19
  20. geo

    nailer Guest

    On 12 Jul 2005 14:34:48 -0700, wrote:

    *RE: nailer wrote:
    *>
    *> There is no difference between crystalline and
    *> anhydrous sodium thiosulfate, just 10 molecules
    *> of water. Both dissolve well in water.
    *>
    *
    * I think you meant to say 5 molecules. I've only
    *read of it as being the penta hydrate.
    * Both dissolve well but the penta will chill the
    *water; not the thing to do just prior to use. Dan


    true, only 5. chilling is not a problem if you start at 40°C,
     
    nailer, Jul 13, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.