DSLR vs Superzoom - help please

Discussion in 'Digital Cameras' started by gA, Aug 17, 2007.

  1. gA

    gA Guest

    My decision-making time is running out before my 2-month trip..
    Only 19 days left and I need to get one! I have a Canon S1 IS and
    have been thinking about the improvements (or lack of) on the S5
    (or S3 with the CHKD firmware upgrade), and have my wife take
    along the S1 and buy a DSLR.

    Because of what I will not give up (flip-out LCD, compact size,
    movies, AA batteries) and what I need (quick focus, low-light
    performance, RAW and quality pictures), does it make sense to get
    a DSLR with ONE lens (say, 18-250 or thereabouts) and not worry
    about dust, or stick with the S3/S5 for ease of use?

    Considering price, flexibility of use, and incorporation of most
    features that I need (or should have, or good to have), is the
    Canon Rebel XTi a good choice? Or should I consider a better
    competitor?

    Thanks for any quick help you can provide.
    - gA
     
    gA, Aug 17, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertisements

  2. gA

    Ron Recer Guest

    Your list of 'what I will not give up' pretty well eliminates most DSLRs.
    It certainly eliminates all Canon DSLRs.

    Ron
     
    Ron Recer, Aug 17, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. gA

    ASAAR Guest

    Probably good advice, but the S3 or S5 won't really do the job if
    low light performance is really needed. I read DPReview's review of
    the S3 IS the other day, and it mentioned that focusing had been
    improved, especially reducing the occasional hunting at the extreme
    long end of the zoom. I also tested one yesterday, taking several
    handheld pictures from street level of the top of the Empire State
    building. I also noticed that the focusing was quick and accurate.

    When I examined the pictures later on the computer, I was quite
    surprised to see that it was able to easily resolve people on the
    upper observation deck. Not well enough to see facial features of
    course, but it was pretty easy to distinguish between men, women and
    children, and I also noticed a number of what were probably coin
    operated telescopes. The greater theoretical resolution of the S5
    (8mp vs 6mp) probably won't realized since the S5 uses the same lens
    as the S3, and DPReview felt that while the S3's resolution was
    pretty good, the lens probably had little more resolution to offer.
    The only other major differences that I can think of at the moment
    are that the S5 has a flash hotshoe, but it also eliminated the
    useful intervalometer functionality.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 17, 2007
    #3
  4. gA

    ASAAR Guest

    That would normally be good advice. In this case however, the OP
    already has lots of experience using the S1 IS, so a couple of weeks
    is probably more than enough to sort out any differences between the
    old S1 and either the S3 or the S5. Unless, that is, you were
    thinking more of infant mortality. In that case, bringing the S1
    along as backup insurance should minimize the consequences of that
    tiny risk.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 17, 2007
    #4
  5. gA

    gA Guest

    I am grateful for the comments and advice I have been given,
    although I was hoping more for a choice of cameras.. For the
    things I will not give up, I will have the S1. For the things that
    I would like to have, I should look at .....?

    With a couple of 2G CFs I should be able to get 3,000 picture, no?
    Would a DSLR 'eat up' more battery power and use up memory than
    the S1? If I were to get a 4G SD (or two), would have enough
    storage for another 3,000 pictures. I have no idea what to expect,
    for this I have to sort out the advice I am given here...

    Assuming that I would go to a DSLR (instead of duplicating
    capabilities of the S1), would the XTi be a good choice for the
    money and ease of use? I had a few SLRs in the last 30 years, but
    none digital.

    Thanks once again. - gA
     
    gA, Aug 17, 2007
    #5
  6. gA

    ASAAR Guest

    No. The higher resolution sensors need larger cards in order to
    hold 3,000 pictures. According to DPReview, the S1 should be able
    to store about 1,200 pictures on a single 2GB CF card (at highest
    resolution and quality). The S3 and S5 switched from CF cards to SD
    and SDHC cards, and at its 6mp resolution, on a 4GB card the S3 can
    store about 1,500 shots at its highest quality Superfine setting and
    about 2,400 shots using Fine quality. With its 8mp sensor, the S5
    can store fewer pictures, about 1,140 Superfine and 1,900 Fine shots
    on the same 4GB cards. 4GB SDHC cards cost a lot less ($50 to $60)
    than I paid for 1GB cards several years ago so the cost per image is
    a lot less than it used to be.

    It's hard to compare battery power when the cameras use different
    batteries, but in general DSLRs can take more shots per charge
    unless you use the flash a lot. In that case they may be good for a
    similar number of shots as the S3. Nikon's D50 DSLR is good for
    about 2,000 shots if the flash isn't used, but only 400 shots if the
    flash is used for 1/2 of the shots. If half of your shots use the
    flash, the S3 is good for about 600 shots using NiMH AA cells and
    the S5 about 500 shots per charge, so for these particular cameras,
    the DSLR gets more shots without the flash and fewer when the flash
    is used.

    With two 4G SDHC cards, the S3 will hold 3,000 pictures. A DSLR
    that has a 6mp sensor should be able to store about as many pictures
    per gigabyte as the 6mp S3 IS. According to DPReview, the 6mp D50
    should be able to store about 1,700 of its highest quality pictures
    on a 4GB card.

    As someone else recently noted, no DSLR would be a very good
    choice if your trip is immanent. That said, the 10mp XTi is a good
    camera, but it's *very* unlikely that you'd notice any difference in
    picture quality compared to what any of the much less expensive 6mp
    or 8mp DSLRs could produce. The Canon kit lenses aren't
    particularly highly regarded, so if you'd ever get to the point
    where your pictures would need all of the XTi's resolution, you'd
    probably also need one of Canon's more expensive lenses. Canon
    doesn't make any bad DSLRs, but you really should consider all DSLR
    brands, and they're all pretty good as well. The fact that you own
    a Canon S1 shouldn't really be a factor in deciding which DSLR brand
    to buy. My first DSLR was Nikon's D50, despite having owned four
    very nice Canon P&S cameras. Many photographers advise that of
    equal importance to any features a camera might have, is the 'feel'
    of the camera. You should go to a store that lets you handle
    several cameras (with charged batteries, of course) to see if any
    are particularly comfortable operating, and to be able to rule out
    any that feel clumsy or awkward, or force you to use the menu too
    much. It's *you*, not someone else that will have to live with
    whatever decision you make.
     
    ASAAR, Aug 18, 2007
    #6
  7. gA

    Dave Cohen Guest

    No dslr will give you a flip out screen. The fact that you seem to be
    only luke warm towards a dslr makes me think perhaps that's not the way
    for you to go. Only you can decide that.
    You can get your AA's, a really good price and what appears to be quite
    a good camera if you go with the Pentax K100d (or K100ds).
    Since you have experience with the S1 IS, you already know if general
    picture quality and low light performance is sufficient for you. I don't
    own a dslr but I believe the strongest argument amongst many would be
    low light performance. You must balance that against bulk and expense.
    I think 'IS' sounds great and you can get that with either choice.
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Aug 18, 2007
    #7
  8. gA

    GreggAkin Guest

    Someone alert me when ASSAAR actually posts something that he actually knows
    about. Until then it's going in the spam-trap for useless misinformation drivel.

    Thank you.
     
    GreggAkin, Aug 18, 2007
    #8
  9. gA

    Yeti Guest

    1. Misery loves company
    2. It will help justify why I wasted money buying one if I can convince you to
    buy one.
    3. I love having dust on my sensor and can't wait to get back from vacation to
    find out each and every one of my photos was ruined because I had to change one
    of 5 different lenses to get the right shot. I also ignore this lens-changing
    time-lag when considering a DSLR because I always miss all the good shots anyway
    during changing lenses. I've never had a camera where I can just shoot at a
    moment's notice so I don't miss what I've never had.
    4. I love throwing my money away because someone else told me to. A silly quirk
    of mine.
    5. The noise the camera makes will frighten away scary animals, making sure I
    only photograph the ones that are used to the loud noises of the DSLR shutter
    and mirror slap.
    6. The slow-shutter speeds available with flash are so nostalgic. I love using
    last century's technology of the slapping mirror and slow focal-plane shutter,
    with all its inherent limitations, drawbacks, noises, and camera shaking. That
    funny curve that a bird's beating wing of makes in a focal-plane shutter being
    just part of one of the many nostalgic effects from this limited mechanical
    contraption.
    7. I will help to make those camera company CEOs wealthy when I spend $1500 on a
    lens that only cost $70 to manufacture using last century's designs and
    materials. How else will the stock market support itself? I'm doing this for the
    good of humanity.
    8. The optical viewfinder prevents me from seeing what happens when I set my
    f/stop for creative bokeh effects and slow-shutter speed effects. There is a DOF
    preview as an added feature on some of the more expensive lenses, but the light
    gets dimmed down so low it's pretty useless.This way I'm not worried until after
    I preview my image on the computer. I won't worry that I didn't get the right
    shot until I get home. Then, since it's too late to do anything about it, I
    don't care. I can't go back and redo it so why worry? Ignorance is bliss!
    9. DSLRs break down faster from all the mechanical functions they have to
    perform. Most DSLRs' shutter and mirror mechanisms lasting about 20,000 to
    50,000 photos before they crap out. This will convince me to buy a new one every
    year or every other year to make sure I'm up to date with the latest
    mechanically-limited technology.
    10. I love running around looking like a "Pro" even though the camera is filled
    to the brim with last-century's technology. They can't be a "Pro"
    if they're not smart, right? RIGHT?! right? hmmmmm....
    11. I enjoy being confronted whenever I take a photo in any public setting. The
    DSLR ensures I will be noticed and singled out as a terrorist or pedo voyeur.
    It's really nice that I'm stopped at any pay-for event and have my photography
    gear confiscated from me until I leave the premises.
    12. I don't have to pay for a health-club to build up my muscles. Just carrying
    those 3 or more lenses needed to get the same zoom range will make sure that I
    get all the exercise I will ever need.
    13. As long as I use a larger sensor with larger pixels I will never notice that
    I'm paying outrageous sums of money for low-quality optics. Any defects get
    hidden and averaged out inside of those larger sensels. Again, ignorance is
    bliss! If I don't see it, it must not exist!
    14. ....

    This list goes on for about 130 more entries. I don't have time to type them all
    just now. Sorry. Just buy a DSLR so you can join the PRO (idiots) CLUB!!! YAY!!
     
    Yeti, Aug 18, 2007
    #9
  10. gA

    ASAAR Guest

    Here's something that I know something about :

    the all new . . .
     
    ASAAR, Aug 18, 2007
    #10
  11. [A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
    This is a very strong misinformation. In many practical situations,
    light gathering ability does not depend on the pixel size, but only on
    entry pupil of the lens. And to get equivalent depth of focus, and
    diffraction circle from 2 different sensor sizes, you need to have
    equal entry pupils anyway.

    So *AS FAR AS YOU CAN GET THE SAME ENTRY PUPUL*, light gathering
    ability "may be" the same (since it is also affected by capacitance of
    the cell, this is applicable ONLY in the case when one does not use
    very low ISO settings of a dSLR).
    A small pixel camera working at f/2.8 could get exactly the same
    amount of light as a large pixel DSLR working at f/8 - and they may
    give practically equivalent DoF and circle of confusion, and would
    require the same exposure time.

    The differences between sensor sizes become pronounced only when one uses

    a) low ISO settings of dSLR (so capacitance of cells matters);
    b) wider open lens of dSLR (which would have no equivalent on a
    smaller camera)

    So the question is mostly the question of lens availability again, not
    sensors.

    Hope this helps,
    Ilya
     
    Ilya Zakharevich, Aug 18, 2007
    #11
  12. gA

    ASAAR Guest

    Welcome to the club. You've been assimilated into the all new . . .
     
    ASAAR, Aug 18, 2007
    #12
  13. gA

    allr1 Guest

    (Yeti) wrote:

    " The reason for getting a DSLR go far beyond lens selection. Some of
    the main reasons include:
    1. Misery loves company
    2. It will help justify why I wasted money buying one if I can convince
    you to buy one.
    3. I love having dust on my sensor and can't wait to get back from
    vacation to find out each and every one of my photos was ruined because
    I had to change one of 5 different lenses to get the right shot. I also
    ignore this lens-changing time-lag when considering a DSLR because I
    always miss all the good shots anyway during changing lenses. I've never
    had a camera where I can just shoot at a moment's notice so I don't miss
    what I've never had.
    4. I love throwing my money away because someone else told me to. A
    silly quirk of mine.
    5. The noise the camera makes will frighten away scary animals, making
    sure I only photograph the ones that are used to the loud noises of the
    DSLR shutter and mirror slap.
    6. The slow-shutter speeds available with flash are so nostalgic. I love
    using last century's technology of the slapping mirror and slow
    focal-plane shutter, with all its inherent limitations, drawbacks,
    noises, and camera shaking. That funny curve that a bird's beating wing
    of makes in a focal-plane shutter being just part of one of the many
    nostalgic effects from this limited mechanical contraption.
    7. I will help to make those camera company CEOs wealthy when I spend
    $1500 on a lens that only cost $70 to manufacture using last century's
    designs and materials. How else will the stock market support itself?
    I'm doing this for the good of humanity.
    8. The optical viewfinder prevents me from seeing what happens when I
    set my f/stop for creative bokeh effects and slow-shutter speed effects.
    There is a DOF preview as an added feature on some of the more expensive
    lenses, but the light gets dimmed down so low it's pretty useless.This
    way I'm not worried until after I preview my image on the computer. I
    won't worry that I didn't get the right shot until I get home. Then,
    since it's too late to do anything about it, I don't care. I can't go
    back and redo it so why worry? Ignorance is bliss!
    9. DSLRs break down faster from all the mechanical functions they have
    to perform. Most DSLRs' shutter and mirror mechanisms lasting about
    20,000 to 50,000 photos before they crap out. This will convince me to
    buy a new one every year or every other year to make sure I'm up to date
    with the latest mechanically-limited technology.
    10. I love running around looking like a "Pro" even though the camera is
    filled to the brim with last-century's technology. They can't be a "Pro"
    if they're not smart, right? RIGHT?! right? hmmmmm....
    11. I enjoy being confronted whenever I take a photo in any public
    setting. The DSLR ensures I will be noticed and singled out as a
    terrorist or pedo voyeur. It's really nice that I'm stopped at any
    pay-for event and have my photography gear confiscated from me until I
    leave the premises.
    12. I don't have to pay for a health-club to build up my muscles. Just
    carrying those 3 or more lenses needed to get the same zoom range will
    make sure that I get all the exercise I will ever need.
    13. As long as I use a larger sensor with larger pixels I will never
    notice that I'm paying outrageous sums of money for low-quality optics.
    Any defects get hidden and averaged out inside of those larger sensels.
    Again, ignorance is bliss! If I don't see it, it must not exist!
    14. ....
    This list goes on for about 130 more entries. I don't have time to type
    them all just now. Sorry. Just buy a DSLR so you can join the PRO
    (idiots) CLUB!!! YAY!! "

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Hear Hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    allr1, Aug 18, 2007
    #13
  14. [A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
    Irrelevant. (Pixel size has no relation to count of incoming photons;
    only the entry pupil matters.) And it does not make sense to use
    differently sized sensor with the SAME F/RATIO; it is like comparing
    apples and oranges.
    Of course it does. Voltage of the cells being the same, capacitance
    is proportional to full well; and at low ISO settings, the light
    gathering ability is bound by full well.

    Hope this helps,
    Ilya
     
    Ilya Zakharevich, Aug 19, 2007
    #14
  15. gA

    Guest Guest

    No, he's one of those that doesn't care to argue nonsense with an ass-hole.

    There's lots of people reading this group that just skip over all of your anal
    and pedantic crap that you use to justify your expenses to yourself. The ONLY
    reason you drag out these arguments is so you can continually post links to your
    crap photography so you can sell it. You're nothing but a thinly veiled spammer
    using newsgroup arguments that YOU INVENT to get your links posted incessantly.

    Don't you think we all know this about you by now? How daft do you think we are?
    You keep doing it so you must think we all don't know what you are up to. That
    makes you the only really stupid one around here.

    You would argue that the moon is made of green-cheese if only you could get your
    links posted on every reply you make.

    A low-life spammer is all you are and will ever be.
     
    Guest, Aug 19, 2007
    #15
  16. [A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)
    Again, apples vs oranges. It is like comparing 8MP camera with (same
    formfactor) 2MP camera.
    It changes how the sensor is used, which is all what is important in
    this discussion. 8 times smaller sensel used with 8 times smaller
    gain will be able to collect the same charge before an overload; used
    with 3 stops wider lens, it will collect the same amount of photons.

    All I say boils down to a simple thing: a smaller sensors (equipped
    with appropriately rescaled lens) won't loose a lot against a dSLR -
    if dSLR is used with high ISO setting. It is the situation of
    large_sensel + low_gain and/or large_sensel +
    not_rescalable_lens_setting which cannot be reproduced by a smaller
    sensels.

    Hope this helps,
    Ilya
     
    Ilya Zakharevich, Aug 19, 2007
    #16
  17. gA

    ASAAR Guest

    Not just a troll but the same disturbed individual that knows that
    the only way he can avoid being effectively kill-filtered is to
    constantly reappear in the guise of a new sock puppet. So then,

    the all new . . .
     
    ASAAR, Aug 19, 2007
    #17
  18. gA

    Pete D Guest

    I think that many (ncluding Roger) forget that higher MP sensors having
    higher pixel density will collect the same number of photons over the
    surface of the sensor so if you print at the same size you will in effect
    concentrate all thos photons and so get a similar result from a 6MP camera
    as from a 10MP camera if you print at the same size, of course using a
    larger sensor is the way to go but even that method has its drawbacks. Under
    good lighting conditions the higher MP is certainly better.
     
    Pete D, Aug 19, 2007
    #18
  19. [A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to
    David J Taylor
    You did not understand. You think in similarly wrong terms to
    Roger's.

    To get identical images, you need to use the same shutter speed, and
    the same entry pupil.

    In practice this means that f-stop and ISO setting should be scaled
    too. So you do not compare ISO1600 of large sensor to ISO1600 of
    small sensor. You compare, e.g. ISO1600 of large sensor with f/11 to
    ISO200 of small sensor with f/4.

    Hope this helps,
    Ilya
     
    Ilya Zakharevich, Aug 19, 2007
    #19
  20. [A complimentary Cc of this posting was NOT sent to
    David J Taylor
    Trying to get identical images is a part of "comparison" procedure.
    Sometimes you can (when f-stops may be rescaled between sensors, and
    the full well of a smaller sensor is not exceeded); otherwise you
    cannot.

    So whether small sensor is worse than the large one is a question of
    situation. Saying that "it is 10x worse" is just plain confusing.
    You missed again: you removed the part relevant to the situation you
    consider:
    .... if the added abberation blur is acceptable to you. (Again, the
    question of lens quality.)

    Hope this helps,
    Ilya
     
    Ilya Zakharevich, Aug 19, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.