DV Datestamp Lost During Simple Edit?

Discussion in 'Amateur Video Production' started by John, Oct 16, 2004.

  1. John

    John Guest

    Hi

    If I edit a DV clip is the datestamp lost when the clip is rendered back to
    DV? (assuming I just do some simple cuts to remove unwanted footage and
    add a few transitions)

    Thanks
     
    John, Oct 16, 2004
    #1
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  2. The datestamp will probably remain in all parts of the DV video that
    didn't have to be rendered (like where fades or other effects where
    added). Simple cuts shouldn't have any effect on it. A transition would
    probably wipe out the datestamp for the duration of the transition.

    I'm speaking from experience with iMovie on a Mac, but I think most DV
    editors work the sam way in this respect.

    To be sure, just edit a few short clips, export them back to tape, and
    see if the datestamp is there.
     
    Gordon B. Alley, Oct 16, 2004
    #2
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  3. John

    Johan Stäck Guest

    As Gordon writes: a test will show...

    But think about the problem: A DV frame consists of basically three parts
    1 Auxillary info (Timecode,datestamp, exposure data etc)
    2 Compressed video
    3 Audio

    A editing program doing a transition will have to construct new DV frames.

    The video portion will often be a mixture of two (or more) DV frames,
    but from where would the auxillary data come? You cant mix them.

    So, probably the Axillary data will be constructed from scratch, and
    hence, the datestamp will be lost (or perhaps reconstructed from the
    computers internal clock).

    /Johan S
     
    Johan Stäck, Oct 16, 2004
    #3
  4. John

    John Guest


    Thanks Gordon
     
    John, Oct 16, 2004
    #4
  5. John

    John Guest

    Ok. Thanks Johan
     
    John, Oct 16, 2004
    #5
  6. John

    Seattle Eric Guest

    I'm using an older system (Raptor/Premiere) and AFAICSee, the (invisible
    ) datestamp is not even captured, let alone preserved.

    I asked a similar question, and the consensus was that most capture did
    NOT capture the datestamp (dammit).

    Has this situation changed??
     
    Seattle Eric, Oct 17, 2004
    #6
  7. You have been informed wrong. Capturing digital data from mini-DV is
    merely is the same like copying a disk. Provided there are no
    drop-outs in the tape, the data is exactly the same, and if your
    camera can extract the Date-stamp from the data-stream, your computer
    can do that too. However, all NLE-software do not make use of this.
    The only program which does something with the Date-stamp, is AVI_IO.
    Now, if you make a cuts-only edit with your software, no titles,
    effects or anything else to it, which forces re-rendering, and then
    write back to tape, the Dat-information is still there. Only when you
    render, the data is lost. Try it for yourself :)

    cheers

    -martin-
     
    Martin Heffels, Oct 18, 2004
    #7
  8. John

    Seattle Eric Guest

    Well, for most purposes, unless the NLE s/w actually displays in some
    form somewhere the date stamp, it might as well not be there.

    Specifically, I'd want to see it in Premiere or AE.
     
    Seattle Eric, Oct 18, 2004
    #8
  9. Write a plug-in. You will be instantly my hero ;-)

    cheers

    -martin-
     
    Martin Heffels, Oct 18, 2004
    #9
  10. John

    Mike Kujbida Guest

    Mike Kujbida, Oct 18, 2004
    #10
  11. John

    Seattle Eric Guest

    Thanks Mike. I'd just like to say you are consistantly helpful and
    rational here, which is very refreshing.
     
    Seattle Eric, Oct 22, 2004
    #11
  12. John

    Seattle Eric Guest

    That looks good, or at least helpful.

    One of the problems, for me is:

    I'm just learning a Betacam/Media100 system. (I believe) when you
    digitize therein, the clip's beginning frame has the same number as the
    TC. Whereas, in, say Premiere, each clip starts at 00;00;00;00.

    Obviously, the s/w keeps track of the difference between "clip time"
    and "TC origination-time".

    As an old-timer, I prefer the M100 way, since it give me a sense of
    where in the SOURCE TAPE the clip was grabbed from. BUT, I suspect that
    this kind of data structure is deep in the DNA of the Premiere code, and
    might be hard to get around.

    I'd be interested to know if Premiere Pro would be able to handle this
    conundrum-- showing the SOURCE TAPE time, not in the video, but in NLE
    interface, and referencing it that way, instead of "clip-time", which is
    essentially useless for me.

    OR, if Vegas has a cross-upgrade policy. >;^)
     
    Seattle Eric, Oct 22, 2004
    #12
  13. John

    Mike Kujbida Guest

    Thanks Eric. Much appreciated.

    Mike


     
    Mike Kujbida, Oct 22, 2004
    #13
  14. John

    Mike Kujbida Guest


    Congratulations. You've just discovered the major limitation of most of the
    cheaper NLEs (Vegas included) :-(
    In addition to Vegas, I also have 2 dpsVelocity suites at work and they
    function very similar to the Media 100 as far as time code is concerned.
    Like you, I miss not having instant access to information like user bit and
    time code data. At this particular moment in time, I don't think Adobe or
    Sony have plans to offer support for features like this. I can tell you
    that a lot of folks on the Vegas forums have been asking (begging) for it
    but, so far, to no avail.
    There is a pseudo-workaround in Vegas. You drop a timecode effect (think
    window dub) on the original clip and have it displayed when you bring it up
    onto the timeline. Then, when you're finished editing, do a "replace clip"
    with the original footage and the timecode disappears.

    I did a search on a few Vegas forums as well as the Sony site and didn't
    find any references to a cross-upgrade policy. If you're serious about it,
    all you can really do is sell your copy of Premiere and buy Vegas outright.

    BTW, there's been a few different threads on the Sony Vegas forum lately
    about importing & exporting from & to SDI/HDCAM/DigiBeta/XDCAM. Truly scary
    because, only a few years ago, this feature was limited to systems that were
    $100,000 or more :)

    Mike
     
    Mike Kujbida, Oct 22, 2004
    #14
  15. John

    Seattle Eric Guest

    I wonder what the coders would say. I beta test a number of apps, and
    once you can convince a coder of the utility of something it often turns
    out to be trivial to implement.

    (Other times, it turns out to be impossible. <8^( )

    Feh. Hackish. Kludgesque.
    If I did more editing on my own systems, I'd consider it. There's
    enough (apparent) improvement that the $99 bux for the Premiere upgrade
    looks a lot more reasonable than five bills for a new app. I should dl
    the demo, no doubt.
    Hoooo doggies!

    E
     
    Seattle Eric, Oct 22, 2004
    #15
  16. Not entirely correct. With Vegas 5 you can set a custom time-code.
    Don't know about Premiere.

    cheers

    -martin-
     
    Martin Heffels, Oct 25, 2004
    #16
  17. John

    Mike Kujbida Guest


    What's your definition of "custom time-code"? You can drop the time code FX
    on a clip in the media pool to get a display of the original time code or
    you can add the time code FX on the overall project but, AFAIK, that's it.

    Mike
     
    Mike Kujbida, Oct 25, 2004
    #17
  18. After you captured, you can change the starting timecode of the clip
    on your timeline, by loading it into the timeline, and right-clicking
    on the clip, select Media, then Custom timecode. If you chop up the
    clip, and open a selected portion in the trimmer, it will show you the
    original timecode in the trimmer-windw. But, unfortunately not in the
    Timecode FX. It would be really cool if the Timecode FX would be
    adapted to have a selection between Source or Record timecode.

    cheers

    -martin-
     
    Martin Heffels, Oct 25, 2004
    #18
  19. John

    Mike Kujbida Guest


    Is that all you want? Why didn't you say so? :)
    Try this as a workaround. Bring your clip into the media pool. Immediately
    right-click and apply the timecode FX to it. Position it in the bottom left
    corner (for this example). This will show you the Source timecode. Now
    bring it up to the timeline and apply the timecode FX found in the "video
    output FX" at the top of the preview window. Position this at the bottom
    right. This is the Record timecode. You'll now see two different timecodes
    simultaneously. Now matter how you split and rearrange the clip, you'll
    always see both the source and record timecodes. When you're finished
    editing, it's a simple matter to remove the FX.
    Does this help?

    Mike
     
    Mike Kujbida, Oct 26, 2004
    #19
  20. Mike, I like my life hard, I'm a masochist, that's why I like the pain
    of non-lineair editing ;-)
    Thanks for the tip!

    cheers

    -martin-
     
    Martin Heffels, Oct 27, 2004
    #20
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