DV500 kicked the bucket...what's next?

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by Damian Bradley, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. My DV500 kicked the bucket and I need to replace it. For the moment,
    I'm getting a fair bit of work as a sports videographer / editor. So
    here's what I need in a realtime card, in rough order of priority:

    0. Price
    1. Good RT Colour Correction
    2. Analog I/O (s-video and composite)
    3. Mpeg-2 compression / DVD Authoring
    4. Quality Titling / credits rendering

    There are features that I assume are equal among cards of this
    level...slow motion, codec quality, overall output quality (analog),
    RT DV output and so on. Are these assumptions valid? My annoyances
    with the DV500 were few...no RT colour correction was probably the
    biggest. Second was limited effects / layers, meaning I had to render
    credit scrolls and whatnot. I liked the fact that the DV500 used its
    own card for sound capture instead of the sound card...that would be a
    plus.

    The Matrox RT.X100 trade-up program looks good at $799, what are my
    other options? I am willing to entertain legacy products if there is
    anything suitable, I just don't know what to look for.

    I'm running XP Pro on an Athlon 2400+ with a gig of ram and ~240 gigs
    of HD space in 3 physical drives (1 system, 2 project).

    I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but I hope I
    begged specific enough questions to keep things focussed.

    Thanks for your time,
    Damian Bradley
     
    Damian Bradley, Nov 16, 2003
    #1
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  2. Damian Bradley

    Joe Guest

    I have a used but still working dv-500 if you just want to replace it - i'll
    put it on eBay someday, but thought I'd offer it.
    I also have a new Edition Pro in box that I tried and didn't like if you're
    considering that route. Make me an offer on both.

    Joe
     
    Joe, Nov 17, 2003
    #2
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  3. Damian Bradley

    Hughy Guest

    Basically, you get what you pay for! If you edit commercially (as you
    do), the outcome of a bad purchase choice is devastating, time wise. I
    would strongly advise you to pay whatever is needed. You probably don't
    need an Avid, though :eek:)

    Nothings perfect, but for us (event video producers editing almost every
    day), firstly the DVStorm, then upgraded to Storm2, has been simply
    superb. The last two years have been a dream run editing wise. Prior to
    that we lived a nightmare of Pinnacle proportions!

    The Canopus Storm2 white balance correction filter is a real bonus
    allowing us to finally do accurate colour correction when its needed! A
    real time saver, as the black art of fiddling the colour to perfection
    was finicky and prone to be less than perfect at times, vectorscope not
    withstanding.

    The downside is that if you want to stay in real time with multiple
    effects/pips etc. (we need to), the W/B filter requires a system with a
    lot of grunt. The filter operates on white balance *and* black balance
    (if needed) - a moderately complex algorithm needing number crunching in
    spades.

    Title filters with DVStorm2 are all we could ever need, with multiple R/T
    titles and effects seemingly effortlessly processed four or five layers
    deep (we have no need for more than that).

    But there are storm clouds on the horizon.

    The future looks to be turbulent. History repeated itself recently, with
    one manufacturer (Pinnacle ... *again* !!) dumping their customers,
    by announcing they were dropping driver development for future versions
    of Premiere. This will give them a future technical advantage (albeit
    alienating even more of their customer base). If Matrox or Canopus does
    the same (I suspect Pinnacles action will force them to), the market will
    become chaotic as the card manufacturers "editor/card combos" make
    inroads into Premieres dominance. A combo offering poor overall
    performance today could be a market leader tomorrow - with an innovative
    software upgrade possibly being able to compensate for poor onboard
    electronics on the card.

    If I were Adobe, I'd be hell bent on acquiring Canopus or Matrox and
    making the current interface to those cards even tighter. That may well
    be the only way Premiere will survive in the longer term.

    You don't say what editing app you use, but if Premiere is important to
    you, you should stick with a manufacturer that hasn't announced they're
    going to dump support for it. If not, your choice should be for a
    manufacturer who supports their customers (historically, not Pinnacle, in
    our experience). You should lurk on the manufacturers support groups -
    and ask pertinent questions there.

    Good luck!

    Hughy
     
    Hughy, Nov 18, 2003
    #3
  4. Hughy,

    Thanks for your great insight. I do in fact use Premiere, and I'm excited
    about the new features found in Premiere Pro (especially things like
    sub-frame audio...I demand near perfection in my audio mixing). I will be
    looking into Canopus and Matrox products alone those lines. It seems to me
    that pinnacle are backing customers into a corner with Edition and the like,
    limiting use of hardware and software to specifics in an industry that is
    really picking up steam in the change department. If there's one thing I've
    learned about business and life, it's that it's the ability to adapt and
    change that keeps you alive.

    I'll see abot posting some insight or further questions at a later date.
    Thanks again,
    Damian
     
    Damian Bradley, Nov 18, 2003
    #4
  5. If I would make a product, competing with Premiere, I would drop
    driver development for it too ;-) You know, same thing might happen
    with Canopus, depending on the success of Edius. From the demo I
    played with, Edius is sufficient for the work of most people.
    You would want Premiere if you want to do offline and online with
    EDL's. But for that are better choices then Premiere.
    And for the OP: the DVStorm is a beautiful card and I have mine for
    nearly 3 years, and still enjoy it. Matrox products are not a bad
    choice either, so if you want to be faithfull, go for the upgrade
    you mentioned. If you're work is not very heavy effects intensive
    (like funky transistions etc), you could consider a cheap, generic
    firewire-card with something like Premiere, which, if you're system
    has a lot of grunt, can give you a good idea how things look like
    when editing, but then you only have to render out the final
    product (but only do consider this if you do non-time critical stuff).
    A warning with Adobe products though: they are planning to introduce
    some crappy licensing system spyware thingy, so if you have problems
    with that skip them (see recent threads in rec.video.desktop)

    cheers

    -martin-
     
    Martin Heffels, Nov 18, 2003
    #5
  6. Damian Bradley

    TonyP Guest

    I don't see how Pinnacle is "dumping" customers by dropping Premiere
    developement. They (Pinnacle) have an editing program that they are
    offering as a replacement. Why would they continue to pay Adobe when
    they have an editing program that, in some ways, is better than
    Premeire? They have supported the product (DV500) well for the past few
    of years with FREE upgrades. Not just bug fixes, but version upgrades
    for the cost of a download. And, as everything else, time marches on
    where video editing will be software based as GPU's and CPU's get faster
    (which is how Liquid Edition works). You can't expect any company to
    continue to support legacy products forever. I don't see DPS still
    supporting their Editbay card. They didn't even support it to run with
    WinME. Nothing in the computer world stands still as far as technology
    goes.
    I believe tying it to hardware will be their downfall.
    Hmm.... let's see... will After Effects still work with it? Or, do you
    have to "upgrade" that too. Again, Pinnacle IS supporting the DV500
    card. But not with Premiere anymore.
     
    TonyP, Nov 18, 2003
    #6
  7. Damian Bradley

    Hughy Guest

    Damian (and anyone else interested in the ways of some manufacturers in
    our industry), you might read the paragraphs below (and then watch the
    flames leap into the night sky)!!! I won't be replying to the flames
    (too much editing backlog .... several weddings behind currently - and
    with four multi cam concerts (between 3 and 5 cameras) coming up in the
    next four weeks (no live mix, either)!

    Pinnacle have been employing people to patrol the newsgroups for some
    time, to couteract the bad press they get from angry and unhappy ex
    customers. I've come under attack from company stooges previously, after
    I put my own Pinnacle horror story on the newsgroups.

    When you find someone continuously defending Pinnacle, try a search on
    the author, on Google groups to see what they most often post on! You
    can look up what I usually post on, too, just in case it shows me to be
    on the Matrox, DPS or Canopus payroll :eek:)

    When you do your searchs, you may find scores of posts supporting good
    ol' Pinnacle whilst simultaneously trying to tar Matrox with a dirty
    brush. These company stooges don't post much on other subjects (but they
    always throw in the odd few, otherwise the jig would be up straight
    away).

    Many posters (me included) do have genuine strong feelings about the
    apalling standard of support of some companies in our industry, after
    all, we've spent many thousands of dollars on editing hardware over the
    years - and suffered when we got it wrong. Nevertheless - do your
    research - twenty minutes or so looking at a posters proportion of posts
    praising Pinnacle, to genuine production subject posts, should show who's
    more interested in supporting Pinnacle than attending to the technical
    problems, issues and challenges that we must all handle to survive long
    term in this game.

    Best regards,
    Hughy.
     
    Hughy, Nov 20, 2003
    #7
  8. Damian Bradley

    TonyP Guest

    Although that "could" be true, I haven't seen much evidence of it. You
    will find usually those that have problems to post the most. You hear of
    the horror stories more than the successes. People for the most part are
    quick to complain (rightly so) than to compliment. And when a compliment
    or praise is issued, it's because they are part of the "party line". I
    have had a DV500 for over 3 years. It was NOT my first choice. I
    initially bought a Matrox RT2500. It offered (to me) more than what the
    DV500 did. But, alas, neither I, nor Matrox (stellar tech help) could
    get it running in my system. So, exchanged it for a DV500, HFX Bronze
    and got some cash back. I haven't looked back since. I do mainly event
    stuff and editing. I have had my share of computer lockups. But, for the
    majority of the time, the product has been more than stable. Pinnacle
    has offered FREE upgrades from 1.0-4.5. Now, they have chosen to use
    their own NLE program instead of Premiere. Makes business sense. There
    are those that don't agree. Those that don't mind. Me, I have gotten so
    used to Premiere that I still use it first (v6.02). Liquid Edition's
    interface is going to take some time to learn. But then, so was BorisFX.
    I have more than made my money back from the DV500. And the webboard has
    helped me through a few hurdles.
    Me, I'll continue to support Pinnacle.
     
    TonyP, Nov 20, 2003
    #8
  9. Damian Bradley

    Bill Renfro Guest

    We have a Pinnacle DV500 system, and a Canopus RexRT system.
    Both have been very stable, and neither has been a problem.
    As far as support goes, I think that Adobe should be the one supporting the
    hardware out there, not the hardware manufacture responsibility. Therefore
    I can't blame Pinnacle for dropping Premiere. Adobe could and should provide
    their own drivers and support.
    We use Premiere here. It has been stable and we have not had any real
    problems on either system.
    You are right when you say that the people who do not have problems tend not
    to post. I have not posted much. I could only compliment all of the above
    products, and I am not affiliated with any of them.

    Bill Renfro
    Christian Technology
     
    Bill Renfro, Nov 20, 2003
    #9
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