DVD burner query

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by manitou, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. manitou

    manitou Guest

    Can anyone here recommend a DVD recorder with firewire I/O for dubbing
    DV/DVCAM tapes?

    Thanks, in advance.

    Charles
     
    manitou, Feb 15, 2009
    #1
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  2. manitou

    blackburst Guest

    Almost all DVD recorders have firewire in. I recommend any Sony.
    However, all of them disable the output function, so you can't dub
    FROM DVD to anything else via firewire.
     
    blackburst, Feb 15, 2009
    #2
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  3. manitou

    manitou Guest


    Would this model be appropriate..?....:

    http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/se...roductId=1005061&navigationPath=n100421n47000

    For editing, I still have an older (1999) Adid Xpress Deluxe (using
    DVCAM deck and SDI I/I). I'll likely upgrade this in another year or
    (not doing much video work just now, but expect to get back).

    For now, my concern is tape deterioration and wanting to preserve good
    footage for possible future use.

    Thanks.

    Charles
     
    manitou, Feb 15, 2009
    #3
  4. Watch out for one possible problem - the DVDs are 704x480
    rather than the 720x480 resolution of a computer-generated DVD,
    and it shows as looking softer...
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Feb 15, 2009
    #4
  5. Too early in the morning...;-) More...:
    The DVD recorder will not copy D25 format, but will
    convert it to MPEG-2 before writing it (at lower resolution,
    for the two recorders I've seen) to DVD, which, BTW, is
    not as long lasting as carefully stored tape unless relatively
    expensive specialty DVD blanks are used. If you try to
    further edit the DVD-stored files, quality will further reduce.
    Better to keep copies of D25 on a couple of hard drives
    plus a couple of tapes (there will be no quality losses from
    making these copies).
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Feb 15, 2009
    #5
  6. Would this model be appropriate..?....:
    http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/se...roductId=1005061&navigationPath=n100421n47000
    For editing, I still have an older (1999) Adid Xpress Deluxe (using
    DVCAM deck and SDI I/I). I'll likely upgrade this in another year or
    (not doing much video work just now, but expect to get back).
    For now, my concern is tape deterioration and wanting to preserve good
    footage for possible future use.

    --The two stand-alone DVD recorders that I have seen
    --have a resolution of 704x480 instead of the standard
    --DVD resolution of 720x480, which results in a softer
    --looking picture. Also, contrary to what you may expect
    --with the FireWire cable input socket on the recorder,
    --the DVD recorder will not copy D25 format, but will
    --convert it to MPEG-2 before writing it at the lower
    --resolution to DVDs. These disks, BTW, are not as
    --long lasting as carefully stored tape unless relatively
    --expensive specialty DVD blanks are used. If you try
    --to further edit the DVD-stored files, quality will further
    --reduce. It's better to keep copies of D25 on a couple
    --of hard drives plus a couple of carefully stored tapes
    --(and there will be no quality losses from making these
    --copies).
    --DR
     
    David Ruether, Feb 15, 2009
    #6
  7. manitou

    manitou Guest

    Thanks, people, for valuable input.

    I expect to upgrade the Avid sooner than later, and may keep the best
    stuff on my existing drives.

    I certainly *don't* want a recorder that reduces quality, even
    marginally.

    Charles
     
    manitou, Feb 15, 2009
    #7
  8. manitou

    blackburst Guest

    blackburst, Feb 16, 2009
    #8
  9. manitou

    blackburst Guest

    By the way, if all you want is to back up DV and/or DVCAM tapes, and
    you're in the US, send me your tapes, some DVCAM blanks and prepaid
    return postage, and I'll make DV/DVCAM digital clones for you at no
    charge. (How many tapes?) I have multiple DVCAM machines with firewire
    capability.
     
    blackburst, Feb 16, 2009
    #9
  10. According to the specifications on the web page you cited,
    that model does NOT have any digital (Firewire) inputs, it
    has only analog.

    Note also some other things....

    1) The MPEG compression used by DVD-video discs is
    quite severe (10-15x) compared to the compression used
    by DV (5x). The resulting disc will be noticably lower in
    quality, and will be recorded in a temporally-compressed
    codec which means that it doesn't save every frame intact,
    and makes subsequent editing more likely to cause visible
    artifacts.

    2) The "archival" qualities of home-burned optical discs is
    almost guaranteed to be less than the already-proven archival
    life expectacy of digital magnetic tape. All this planet's most
    valuable data is archived on digital magnetic tape. No
    significant amount is archived on burned optical media.
    There is no credible proof of long-term archival life expectancy
    of burnable optical discs. And there is considerable proof
    that they are too variable in quality to depend on for any
    kind of serious archiving. Many of us have stacks of discs
    that have already gone bad in just a few months or years.

    3) mini-DV tapes are so cheap these days it would be well
    worth it to just make "clone" copies. You can do this with
    two machines (camcorders and/or VCRs). Or you can do
    it by capturing your video into your computer via Firewire
    into a DV-AVI file and then writing it back out to a new tape
    on the same machine (your camcorder or whatever). This
    will make a bit-perfect clone of the information on the tape.

    You can put the tapes into a zip-top plastic bag and have
    your cousin in Cincinnatti keep it in the back of his sock
    drawer. Or if you are a big corporation, you can pay a
    service to come to your house in an armored car and take
    the lockbox to a big cave in North Dakota.
     
    Richard Crowley, Feb 16, 2009
    #10
  11. manitou

    manitou Guest

    This unit has front panel firewire...:

    http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/se...productId=1005060&navigationPath=100421n47000

    CPJ
     
    manitou, Feb 16, 2009
    #11
  12. manitou

    manitou Guest

    manitou, Feb 16, 2009
    #12
  13. "Jan Panteltje"wrote ...
    Commercial DVD video discs ARE NOT *BURNED* they are
    moulded and have much much longer archival expectancy. The
    way moulded optical discs and burned optical discs record data
    are VERY different. They only look similar to the naked eye from
    the label site.

    The retention of data in flash memory depends on the integrity of
    minute charges in floating gates in an integrated circuit chip. I have
    zero faith in the long-term expectations that all those charges will
    be retained error-free. Especially considering that cosmic rays
    pass through everything (including miles of earth). Note that at
    some time in the future, both microprocessor and memory (RAM)
    chips will be equipped with active cosmic-ray detection and
    recovery mechanisms because cosmic rays are becoming an
    increasing risk-factor as chip density keeps going up (and signal
    amplitude keeps going down).
    Good luck with that. What kind of research do you think results
    in an estimate that could be off by a *decimal order of magnitude*?
    Seems like it keeps getting re-hashed everytime someone wanders
    through here asking about "archiving". If anything, I am even more
    pessimistic about burnable optical and flash than last time we had
    this discussion.
    If "seems OK" is good enough for your purposes, go for it.
    Don't let my pessimism dissuade your optimism.
    Huh? What kind of "old magnetic media" are you talking about?
    I've got mag tape on *PAPER (not plastic) substrate* that is likely
    at 50 years old and probably plays better than when it was made.
    There are plenty of people with 5-1/4 inch (an even 8-inch) floppy
    drives around. Seems like poor planning to discard one's last drive
    without copying the discs to new media. (Assuming the content of
    the discs was worth archiving.)
    I am not aware of ANY videotape format for which you can't
    find people with working drives who can dub onto new media.
    Yep. The people who run services that dub quad tape to modern
    digital formats are laughing all the way to the bank. I wish I DID
    have a quad machine in the back room.
    Very expensive (per MB) compared to more traditional media.
    Granted, the price will continue to drop and it will be as cheap
    as other media someday. (But not today)
     
    Richard Crowley, Feb 16, 2009
    #13
  14. You are right. I missed "DV terminal" at the bottom of the list.
    Being Sony, I had expected to see "i-Link" or somesuch.
    Chances are that you won't miss a few pixels at the edge.
    But you WILL see the higher compression artifacts, especially
    if you edit the archived video.
     
    Richard Crowley, Feb 16, 2009
    #14
  15. manitou

    blackburst Guest

    This unit has one "I-Link (DV) input.
     
    blackburst, Feb 17, 2009
    #15
  16. Good question. The only problems I've ever had with ANY kind of
    mag tape (analog or digital, audio, video, or data) was at write-time.
    Once the tape is written properly, the potential hazards seem to be:

    * Deterioration of the media. This appears to be limited to a particular
    range of analog audio tapes made in the 1970s that exhibit "sticky shed"
    (for which there are several well known solutions availble). Tape can
    also be compromised by improper storage, but you can say that for most
    any kind of media.

    * Deterioration of the magnetic signal. Keeping tapes away from strong
    AC magnetic fields is the simple and easy solution to this. We have heard
    of the crisis in Hollywood of all the old film stock deteriorating and
    taking
    the old classics with it. But mag tape is built on much more robust kinds
    of substrate and I have heard of no similar crisis for mag tape.

    * Interchange (alignment) of the recorder vs. player. Linear analog
    (audio) tape machines are easily azimuth tweaked to match the recorder.
    This is so common in audio circles that it is a matter of course and people
    don't give it a second thought. Linear digital tapes (computer 9-track,
    DCC, DASH, etc.) are robust enough to not need azimuth alighment.

    And analog and digital helical-scan (all video, DAT, most modern computer
    backup cassette formats) are mostly "self-aligning" either by use of a sync
    track, or using self-sync patterns. The worst case is when the recorder
    (or player) is out of alignment, and then the cure is to deliberately mis-
    align the player to match the tape for long enough to read it, and then
    re-align it properly.

    Note that professional equipment typically has a "read-after-write" feature
    where it supplies a continuous "confidence read" of the tape immediately
    after it is written. IIRC, some of the super-fast flash memory supports
    this kind of read-after-write confidence readback, also. But most
    consumer flash media are barely fast enough to handle simple writing.
     
    Richard Crowley, Feb 17, 2009
    #16
  17. "Jan Panteltje" wrote...
    Playback is never perfect. Even for new material and digital recordings.
    The difference is how effectively errors are handled.
    But typically those single bit errors are detected and mitigated before
    you are handed the mpeg output stream. Note that "mitigation" of a
    stream of audio or video
    The fact remains that people who store petabytes of data every year
    and have data archiving budgets that rival the GNP of small nations
    still use digital mag tape. No better medium has replaced it yet. All
    the theorizing that we can do here doesn't change the very well
    researched decision of people who do this for a living.

    Digital medium are designed intrinsicly with far more sophisticated
    ECC than simple MD5. Take a look at the ECC used in for encoding
    DV for writing to tape, for example.
    But field-burned optical media suffer from the varying quality of the
    burn power/speed, the formulation of the photosensitive dye, etc.
    All of which makes it far less reliable than good old mag tape.
    Mechanical contact is not a problem with mag tape unless you use
    a tape over and over dozens of times (typically never done for
    archive tapes.)
    But by the time you run the check and it reports that it can no
    longer read the data it is too late.

    I had equally high hopes for DVDR when I first started using
    them. Then I realized that I couldn't get a fraction of the lifetime
    out of them that I could from mag tape.

    They are very convienent until you count having to re-copy them
    every "X" years. (Where "X" is determined by how lucky you are.)
     
    Richard Crowley, Feb 17, 2009
    #17
  18. I was interrupted and didn't finish the paragraph...
    is a matter of "fixing up" the data so that it is percieved well by the
    audience.
    It is NOT the same as error-CORRECTION as is done with computer
    files and "hard data".
     
    Richard Crowley, Feb 17, 2009
    #18

  19. MD5 file contents using windows powershell :
    http://blogs.msdn.com/powershell/archive/2006/04/25/583225.aspx

    or, using PHP (on any platform you happen to have) :

    <?php
    print(md5_file("C:/path/to/file/name.avi"));
    ?>

    Cheers - Neil
     
    Neil Smith [MVP Digital Media], Feb 17, 2009
    #19

  20. You're confusing SUSE4 from around 1999, and what the poster said -
    "modern operating systems".

    I have XUbuntu on my netbook which automounts its SD card and it's no
    trouble since it's *required* (by me) as I have /usr parititioned onto
    that device to make the OS fit on the hardware.

    And I'd like you to propose a Linux install which automatically mounts
    and reads OSX formatted partitions without user intevention ...

    OS Comparison FAIL (back to school for you)

    Luckily your needs differ from all other users on the planet, in that
    you have a homogenous system with no apparent compatibility speedbumps
    which need to be resolved.

    How exceedingly fortunate for you (and what a small small world you
    live in). The rest of us have to deal with a multitude of source
    systems and don't have the luxury of sitting on the particular
    mountain you're on to look down on less fortunate users** in the ~real
    world~

    ** Or come to think of it - CUSTOMERS.

    Cheers - Neil
     
    Neil Smith [MVP Digital Media], Feb 17, 2009
    #20
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