Easy Canon Rebel XT & Canon 430 EX flash questin

Discussion in 'Canon' started by All Things Mopar, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. I went as planned to the Walter P. Chrysler Museum this
    morning and rattled off a couple hundred test shots with flash
    and available light. Results look OK so far.

    Came up with a connundrum, however, that I cannot resolve in
    the camera or flash user manual:

    When, for /whatever/ reason I don't like eTTL flash, and I've
    tweasked /whatever/ on camera and flash to death, I would like
    to switch the 430 EX external into full power (1/1) Manual,
    and the Rebel XT into Full Manual, and set the exposure the
    old-fashioned way by dividing GN by distance to get aperture.

    Let's not debate what the GN is, OK? It varies from about 102
    to 120, depending on the max aperture of the kit lens.

    Problem is this: the camera/flash combination /still/ tries to
    do its best for an AE exposure! I can easily verify that with
    the careful distance, aperture, and camera EV settings I used
    in my controlled test.

    Here's the section of the 430 EX's manual that seems to
    confirm this, page 12, describing how to set the flash for
    various camera shooting modes:

    "M - Select this mode when you want to set both the shutter
    speed and aperture manually. Standard exposure of the MAIN
    subject is obtained with the flash. The exposure of the
    BACKGROUND is obtained with the shutter speed and aperture you
    set." (my caps for emphasis)

    WTF?! Did I read that right? I /still/ cannot get a plain, old
    GN / distance exposure?

    I thought until I tried this on cars this morning that the
    Rebel XT /did/ work full manual, but that was in my house
    where the main subject was close to the walls. But, in a
    museum, the car is maybe 12-18 feet from me, while the walls
    and background exhibits are 30-50 feet away. So, not
    unexpectedly, /both/ the car /and/ the walls are way off -
    underexposed.

    I'm going back this afternoon to try again, and I've read and
    re-read the manual for camera and flash, but as best I can
    tell, Full Manual on the camera is for daylight and available
    light indoors, maybe with the pop-up flash, but maybe not for
    the 430 external.

    Have I got this wrong or right? Someone please tell me how to
    turn off whatever "auto" is built into either the flash or
    camera so I can do a simple calculation in my head and nail
    the exposure /the first time/ within +/- 1 f/stop.

    Thank you, and please, please, please stick just to the
    question. I'll provide additional info, but I don't want to go
    off in the tall weeds. Among other things, please don't debate
    why I want to do this in the first place, I just do. Thank you
    again.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry

    "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
    your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the
    pseudonym Stephen G. Tallentyre
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 3, 2006
    #1
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  2. All Things Mopar

    G.T. Guest

    Read it this way: "The flash exposes the main subject according to your
    flash settings (either from e-TTL or your manual power setting). The
    shutter speed and aperture you have chosen will effect the exposure of the
    background."
    I don't have a Speedlite so this is academic and more for my curiosity but
    if you set the ISO, shutter speed, aperture, and manually set the flash
    strength to full power how can anything else change the exposure?

    Greg
     
    G.T., Jan 3, 2006
    #2
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  3. All Things Mopar

    Larry Lynch Guest

    From my experience with the Digital Rebel and the Speedligh, I would say
    the manual just has a section there that is poorly worded or poorly
    translated.

    It SHOULD say The Speedlight lights the maim subject and the
    Aperture/Shutter speed captures the background..

    That is a little less ambivalent, and doesnt lead one to believe the
    flash is going to "adjust" itself when in "Manual".

    It didnt seem to when I used it.

    Larry Lynch
    Mystic CT
     
    Larry Lynch, Jan 3, 2006
    #3
  4. Today G.T. commented courteously on the subject at hand
    OK, I can put the accept on the other "syl-lah`-bull", but
    that doesn't explain what I actually saw happen, G.T.
    Smart aleck answer to your question, Greg: "beats the hell
    outta me!". It CAN'T work any other way or it ain't "manual"!

    That's why I asked. I had the same problem with my Nikon 5700,
    only for that, Nikon tech support said it doesn't do full
    manual with flash. So, I asked not one, but two camera stores
    if the Rebel XT does full manual flash. Yep, and Yep.

    As best I can see, it is the 430 EX external flash, and not
    the camera, that is doing this (apparently) bizzare thing. I
    haven't had nearly enough time to investigate it fully, so I
    was hoping that someone would come along that a) has a Rebel
    XT, b) has one of the 3 external flashes Canon sells,
    preferably the 430 EX, and c) has tried full manual on both
    camera and flash.

    When things get camera/flash specific, it really helps for
    more experienced /owners/ to ring in.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry

    "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
    your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the
    pseudonym Stephen G. Tallentyre
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 3, 2006
    #4
  5. Today Larry Lynch commented courteously on the subject at
    hand
    Did you use the built-in pop-up, or the specific Canon 430 EX
    external? It seems to make a big difference in my limited tests.
    OK, Larry. I clearly need to try this again. But, it sure as
    hell ain't rocket science. I can easily pace off the distance
    from where I'm standing to the car, take the average GN I use
    for the 430 EX, do the math with my cell phone calculator, set
    the aperture and go. I'm telling you, Larry, the pictures are at
    least 4-6 stops under. And, yes, I have flash synch set properly
    and yes I made damn sure the ready light was on the flash.

    I can't figure it out - yet. But, I will! Meanwhile, anyone with
    an explanation or a suggestion would be welcome.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry

    "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
    your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the
    pseudonym Stephen G. Tallentyre
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 3, 2006
    #5
  6. All Things Mopar

    Steve Green Guest

    Exactly. Too bad you've been an insufferable, arrogant jerk, and have
    alienated so many of the people who tried to help you, and others who
    could have helped you. BTW, mopar, you may _own_ a copy of Dale
    Carnegie's book, but you obviously haven't learned _anything_ from it.
    As others have said, take a good look in the mirror.

    I would suggest that anyone inclined to help this guy should first
    take a good look at the other threads he has started recently, and
    note how he has treated the people who tried to help him. If anyone
    wants to help him out after that....well, you've been warned.

    Steve
    (who has loads of experience with the specific problems mopar-jerk is
    asking about---but wouldn't offer help in a million years, after
    seeing the way he acts towards people when he doesn't like their
    helpful answers)
     
    Steve Green, Jan 4, 2006
    #6
  7. All Things Mopar

    G.T. Guest

    Yep, and it wouldn't surprise me at all that something is jiggy with the
    flash setting. Over the last 18 months there have been various complaints
    here about the Canon flashes on the Rebels, Rebel XTs, and 20Ds. I figured
    once I got around to purchasing an external flash I'd look back through the
    archives so I'd no what I was getting into.
    Yep.

    Greg
     
    G.T., Jan 4, 2006
    #7
  8. Thank you, Steve, for putting it so well. He'll get no help from me.

    Peter Marquis-Kyle
    350D + 380EX owner
     
    Peter Marquis-Kyle, Jan 4, 2006
    #8
  9. All Things Mopar

    C J Southern Guest

    I've learned a lot about flash photography in the past few weeks - I would
    try to help, but - well - it's such a nice day I think I'll go take a walk
    on the beach on this occasion.

    (Well put by the way)
     
    C J Southern, Jan 4, 2006
    #9
  10. Today Steve Green commented courteously on the subject at
    hand
    I'll ask you the same question I asked Alan: Do you own and use
    a Rebel XT and Canon 430 EX external flash? Yes, we talk more.
    No, we stop.
    Think and do whatever floats your boat. I suggest, though, that
    you Google for my posts, your own and everyone elses.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry

    "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
    your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the
    pseudonym Stephen G. Tallentyre
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 4, 2006
    #10
  11. Today Peter Marquis-Kyle commented courteously on the subject
    at hand
    I won't miss what I never saw, so bye, bye.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry

    "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
    your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the
    pseudonym Stephen G. Tallentyre
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 4, 2006
    #11
  12. All Things Mopar

    C J Southern Guest

    Sorry to hear you're leaving. Get well soon.
     
    C J Southern, Jan 4, 2006
    #12
  13. Today C J Southern commented courteously on the subject at hand
    You misunderstand. I ain't going anywhere, but you be careful
    not to let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

    Just so I am crystal clear here: I in no way will miss any of
    the "help" all you legends-in-your-own-minds "experts" are
    witholding because I'm such a freaking asshole. To date, I have
    recieved no - repeat, no - help on any question/complaint I have
    posted to this NG since I bought my XT. I don't know, but I
    somewhat suspect that nobody taking me on even has the hardware
    I do, so their babble is just theoretical horse shit.
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 4, 2006
    #13
  14. All Things Mopar

    G.T. Guest

    You're so full of shit I can smell your stink through the Internet.
    You've been given plenty of help here and you're a moron to ignore the
    advice of the JPS's, Alan Brownes, David J Taylors, Skip Ms, and Jeremy
    Nixons of this newsgroup.

    Greg
     
    G.T., Jan 4, 2006
    #14
  15. Today G.T. commented courteously on the subject at hand
    That's why my eyes are brown, or so I've been told. But, to
    your second "point", Greg, I have /yet/ to get /any/ help
    whatsoever that was germaine to the topic, from /anyone/,
    certainly not the notable notables you name above.

    That's fine, though. As I said some days ago, I am a quick
    study and learn from my mistakes, so I can do very well, thank
    you, without help from the experts around here.

    But, to be even-handed, why don't /you/ point out the
    question/problem/complaint I raised in my thread starting OPs,
    as they evolved, re: the Canon Rebel XT with Canon 430 EX
    external flash combo and specificially who said what about
    what hardware and what q/p/c. I can't, but maybe you can.

    Don't feel bad, though, I've lurked here for a long, long time
    and the same thing goes on, and on, and on, for other hapless
    victims whose only "crime" was to be temporarily ignorant of
    how to do something or how to run their camera. Experts pour
    out of the woodwork using fancy words like "EV, "EC", "RAW",
    .... ... ...

    Since I wasn't exactly as crystal clear as I'd hope to be, let
    me re-phrase my request: If people have polite, respectful,
    intelligent things to say about issues I've raised - and you
    have the camera & flash that I do to prove it - then I thank
    you in advance, and I look forward to reading and applying
    what you so gratiously choose to teach such an unworthy wretch
    as myself. But, if your wont is just to make insulting sport,
    then **** Off, Eat Shit and Die, STFU, and just go the ****
    Away!

    Happy now, Greg, you've successfully joined the ranks of
    bleeding, flaming, total assholes. And, the ranks of the
    intelgencia branch of trolls. Trolls everywhere have the same
    attributes, so my thanks to all of you - for everything. And a
    final **** You Very Much!
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 4, 2006
    #15
  16. All Things Mopar

    G.T. Guest

    Did you forget you said: "To date, I have
    recieved no - repeat, no - help on any question/complaint I have
    posted to this NG since I bought my XT"?

    To add emphasis, "any question/complaint". You've received plenty of
    help in this newsgroup, even on this thread as one person has already
    confirmed that his flash works fine on his XT.

    Greg
     
    G.T., Jan 4, 2006
    #16
  17. All Things Mopar

    C J Southern Guest

    Ahh - we have an admission here. Perhaps if it were followed by an apology
    for being such a proctologists delight ...
    Yep - sounds like we're pretty hopeless. I reckon you'd be better off
    looking for help somewhere else. In fact, anywhere else.
    Yep - right on cue - you're getting predictable.
     
    C J Southern, Jan 4, 2006
    #17
  18. All Things Mopar

    C J Southern Guest

    You keep saying this, and yet you carry on with your abusive, anti-social
    behaviour. If you're a "man of your word" why don't you carry out your
    intent to "do very well with out us"?
     
    C J Southern, Jan 4, 2006
    #18
  19. Today C J Southern commented courteously on the subject at
    hand
    No, what you see is trolling for idiots with sarcasm, and I
    snared you.
    Already have. You've been of zero.zero help, so I can't miss
    what I never had.
    When you think you know a fastball is coming, watch out for a
    changeup!
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 5, 2006
    #19
  20. Today C J Southern commented courteously on the subject at
    hand
    Hey, numb nuts (or, whatever the correct slur is), I /am/ doing
    without you. What I'm doing, quite successfully, is trolling for
    imbeciles. You keep biting. Doesn't it hurt yet? Oh, yes. Your
    plonk digit is broken, also.
     
    All Things Mopar, Jan 5, 2006
    #20
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