Fees for the commercial use of photos

Discussion in 'UK Photography' started by Phil Stovell, May 19, 2010.

  1. Phil Stovell

    Phil Stovell Guest

    Is there in guidance for reasonable fees to charge for the commercial use
    of photographs?

    Cheers.
     
    Phil Stovell, May 19, 2010
    #1
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  2. Phil Stovell

    Phil Stovell Guest

    Phil Stovell, May 20, 2010
    #2
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  3. In which case you should multiply the desired price by ten. If you charge
    too little you could have difficulty being taken seriously if it goes to
    court. (But IANAL. It may be worth consulting one, e.g. one of those no fee
    no win outfits, especially if it comes to court action as there can be
    pitfalls.)


    --
    _______________________________________________________

    "She's dead!" "No she's not." "She's alive?" "She's Nosferatu."
    "She's Italian?!" -- Mel Brooks' Dracula.
    _______________________________________________________
     
    Gordon Freeman, May 21, 2010
    #3
  4. Phil Stovell

    Phil Stovell Guest

    I was thinking of charging £50 for each use, making a total of £150.
    £1,500 seems to me to be a bit too much, but it would be nice!
     
    Phil Stovell, May 21, 2010
    #4
  5. On one hand you've got to be reasonable in order to get paid promptly,
    on the other it's got to be enough to be taken seriously. Are they an
    independent pub, part of a chain, or what? I assume the licensee's name
    over the door is the first contact. The size of business might make a
    difference to your approach and amount asked. And, if part of group,
    notifying the HQ (after first approaching licensee and not receiving
    response) might be wise.

    To defend your position you need to inform them of their breach asap,
    but do make sure you have a copy of the menu/card/ads (check how many)
    before they disappear!

    Best of luck.

    Mike
     
    Michael J Davis, May 21, 2010
    #5
  6. Phil Stovell

    Phil Stovell Guest

    Thanks for the response.

    I've scanned the business card, it can be seen here:

    http://www.panoramio.com/photo/35783092

    The card measures 85mmx55mm.

    My original photo is:

    http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5130248

    The advert is run in the local rag (Portsmouth Evening News), I'll buy a
    copy later and see if the advert is there.

    The menus feature a prominent copy of the photo on about 1/3 of the front.
    I may be able to take a photo of one over the weekend.

    I expect this must be quite a frequent occurrence, perhaps Google should
    put more information about copyright and how to request usage permission
    on the web page.

    Thanks once again.
     
    Phil Stovell, May 21, 2010
    #6
  7. Phil Stovell

    grinch Guest

    Trouble is in the real world they can get out of paying as there is no
    copyright symbol on the original photograph.

    They could just take a similar shot from the same angle and claim it was
    their photo they used Could you prove it was not to the standard required by
    a court ?

    They could register the pub image as a trademark and you could then be sued
    for breaching their trademark by publishing it on the web.


    Give it a go but don't waste too much time/money on it ,get legal advice
    from the ambulance chasers.
     
    grinch, May 21, 2010
    #7
  8. Phil Stovell

    Bruce Guest


    That has nothing to do with anything.


    Going to court is not really an option here. Anything we post on the
    Internet is open to abuse by others, so we should either accept that
    it might be used, or post at small enough pixel size and/or low JPEG
    quality and/or with a watermark to deter others from using it.

    As for trying to obtain money from the pub, I was involved in a case
    where someone had the same sort of thing happen (though not with a
    pub) and after many months of wrangling the company that "stole" the
    image apologised, withdrew the material that contained the image and
    paid for a slap-up meal for the two people who were in the image. That
    is probably the most you can expect. Personally, I would expect
    nothing.

    Whoever posted the freelance photographer's scale of fees is taking
    the piss. There is no way that an amateur photographer who was naive
    enough to post a useable image on the Internet could possibly justify
    such fees. In any case, the majority of professional photographers
    work for far less money.

    If the OP wants legal advice he should try posting to one of the legal
    newsgroups such as uk.legal.moderated. He is wasting his time posting
    here, because too much encouragement is being given to take action
    that will ultimately be futile, and potentially very expensive.
     
    Bruce, May 21, 2010
    #8
  9. Phil Stovell

    Chris H Guest

    There does not need to be. It may be the law in "somewhere" but not in
    the UK. Do try and keep up with the basics.
    You will need to have some evidence the picture is yours. The fact it is
    on the web site should help.
    You are not legally trained. (Not the . rather than a ?)

    1 You can take a picture of anything you can see from a public place.

    2 re trade marks.... not in this case. Otherwise no one could take a
    picture of the high street. It comes down to "passing off"

    Phil,
    I suggest you get your evidence to prove your picture is yours. Maybe
    ask a solicitor because there are no lawyers for this :)

    Then charge the pub what ever the legal fees were for the advice + a bit
    for yourself (don't go overboard) and stay on friendly terms with the
    pub. You could get more work out of it. They may prefer to pay in kind
    (if they serve food) and give you more real business.

    Offer to do some other picture and or portraits and a reasonable rate
    and include something for the one they are already using?

    Don't go in all guns blazing as they may not realise they have done
    anything wrong. If you go in to hard they will get all defensive and no
    one wins.

    Finally watermark all your photos. Not obtrusively, just in the corner
    to help prove a case.
     
    Chris H, May 21, 2010
    #9
  10. Phil Stovell

    Chris H Guest

    Trouble is people now expect software and pictures on the Internet to be
    free... No one wants to pay for time and effort anymore.
     
    Chris H, May 21, 2010
    #10
  11. You might have a point when it comes to stolen images being used on
    non-commercial websites - i.e. that it happens so it's up to us to try
    to prevent it.
    But anyone producing material for commercial use - especially when
    printed - should know better and have no defence.
    I was thinking of suggesting similar payment, except for the risk of
    unpleasant things being done to the food before it gets to the table.
    Jesus, I wouldn't!
    Dunno why you're assuming the OP is an amateur, or what difference
    that's supposed to make anyway.
    Personally I'd suggest a fee in line with yer average professional being
    commissioned to take the photo. 150 quid sounds about right.
    Dunno who's answers you've been reading, but the only encouragement I've
    seen is to contact the pub with a price. There's nothing potentially
    expensive in doing that.
     
    Willy Eckerslyke, May 21, 2010
    #11
  12. Phil Stovell

    Bruce Guest


    I agree they have no defence, but taking them to court is wholly
    unrealistic. This is far too trivial a matter to waste a court's time
    with.


    Then you are naively over-optimistic. ;-)


    If he was a professional he wouldn't need to ask how much the images
    were worth. No professional with any sense would post images to the
    Internet of a quality that could be used in the way this one has.
    That's asking for them to be used.


    Sounds about right? Just try extracting that from the pub owner!


    Suggestions have been made to take legal advice with a view to court
    action. No solicitor will take on such work pro bono or on a no win,
    no fee basis. So it is going to cost a lot of money - one hour of a
    solicitor's time (typically £150 and steeply upwards) is going to cost
    more than the whole case is worth.

    Personally, I would drop it, learn the lesson (never to post usable
    images and expect them not to be used) and then move on. It just
    isn't worth the time, effort and heartache.

    But there is no shortage of barrack-room lawyers on Usenet newsgroups
    who will tell you otherwise, then vanish into the ether when their
    "advice" is found to be unsound.
     
    Bruce, May 21, 2010
    #12
  13. Phil Stovell

    Chris H Guest

    I agree with much of what you have said. However checking with a
    solicitor, most give an initial meeting for free, and then talking to
    the pub owner in a non aggressive way may get some money or more likely
    a free meal and a drink or two. Even a credit on the photos and possibly
    some more work.

    Also it makes the pub owner more aware and a licensee can not usually
    afford to go to court (does not look good when license renewal comes up)
    so you could get a reasonable outcome all round. But do NOT try charging
    pro fees for this unless you have the backing of a large organisation
    like Getty it is just not worth it. Just go for "something" even if it
    is just a free meal. You might find the pub owner is a "good bloke" and
    it is a pub local to you the good will of a local landlord is worth more
    than cash in many cases.
     
    Chris H, May 21, 2010
    #13
  14. Phil Stovell

    grinch Guest


    You are correct in that there is no legal need,but this could have been
    prevented by such a marking. For the information of everyone who publishes
    their photographs read sections 2 and 4

    www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p03_copyright_notices

    Had the photograph had this on it or similar

    Copyright © 2010 Bloggs Joe

    Then it would be much more difficult if not imposable to argue that they
    did not know that the work was copyrighted.
    Agreed, when ever I submit prints for publication I always put the above on
    them ,a website is a just another form of publication.

    Also be aware that certain competitions and websites (BBC for instance)
    require full use of any image submitted to them without extra or possibly
    any payment each time the use the image. AP being one of the few
    exceptions to this.
     
    grinch, May 22, 2010
    #14
  15. Phil Stovell

    Chris H Guest

    I agree. ALL my [electronically] published pictures have an
    [unobtrusive] watermark and an exif copyright.
    Yes... No room for doubt. When asked I will supply one without the
    watermark though this is normally after the contract has been
    negotiated.
    Yes... My local newspaper fro example. Sent them some pictures that
    they used in the paper and later found them selling them on their web
    site!!!!

    However BBC news does honour all copyrights for pictures supplied for
    news reporting
    That's good to know

    Sadly the culture of something for nothing is growing. In software,
    pictures in fact almost anything electronic you can put over the net.
    One of the main things to encourage and enforce this trend is Open
    Source SW

    So when you have a sig that says....
    Output certified Micrsoft free
    Checked with OpenSuse 11.2

    You become part of the problem. (Even though M$ is hardly "the good
    guys" in this.)
     
    Chris H, May 22, 2010
    #15
  16. Phil Stovell

    grinch Guest

    I take your point never though of it in that way. As an ex Cisco networks
    engineer Mickysoft was the bain of my life so I stopped using it in 2001 .

    This is not the forum for the discussion of the merits of OSS ,I will say
    only this .What is a virus ???

    Given your comments even more reason for a copyright marking on all
    published pictures.There is a need to clearly show to all what is free and
    what is not
     
    grinch, May 23, 2010
    #16
  17. Phil Stovell

    Huge Guest

    I've never heard such unmitigated tosh.
     
    Huge, May 23, 2010
    #17
  18. Phil Stovell

    Chris H Guest

    Do that... you end up with a friend, a fee meal and a gallery :)
    Probably leading to [paid] more work...
     
    Chris H, May 23, 2010
    #18
  19. Phil Stovell

    Chris H Guest

    That is another story.... :) I use Window XP, OSX and Solaris here.
    (apart from some safety critical RTOS) but let's not go there in a photo
    group :))))
    Agreed. Both Exif and small watermark. I don't like the ones where
    they put a copyright across the middle in large letters.
     
    Chris H, May 23, 2010
    #19
  20. Phil Stovell

    Chris H Guest

    Well come to reality.
     
    Chris H, May 23, 2010
    #20
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