For those who think MS/UC is reforming

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Robert Vervoordt, Oct 14, 2004.

  1. Found this in rec.phot.film+labs:

    ===================================
    (Tal) wrote in message
    Are YOU the one who can't focus?
    How many drugs are you on, moron?
    Gee, I wonder how high you'd register on a stupidometer.
    Hey, go shove a diffusion filter up your ass...
    ================================

    Of course, the link doesn't work; MS likes to drop useless bait, as I
    suspected.



    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Oct 14, 2004
    #1
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  2. I don't see posts from he-who-must-not-be-named unless someone else
    forwards them. For God's sake, why do this? I don't expect good behavior
    from some, as they simply seem incapable of it, but there are a number
    of you who are obsessed with continuing and spreading useless "debate"
    and nasty material who seem nice enough otherwise. Please, please, give
    it a rest.

    Why not set up a positive reward system? You know, for each day that you
    refuse to give in to trollish crap you give yourself a nice reward. A
    generous tumbler of Laphraoig or Lagavulin should work. You can't have
    any if you're bad! After you make it through a couple of days, reward
    yourself only after two days of successful troll denial. And so on.
    Before long, you might even stay de-trolled for months!

    -Peter De Smidt
     
    Peter De Smidt, Oct 14, 2004
    #2
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  3. Good techniques. I haven't had to use them, as I was able to refrain
    from answering the nameless one directly immediately after receiving
    such suggestions from John Douglas and you, Pete. I didn't killfile
    the uncontrollable one, but just replied to someone who replied to
    him. Was I splitting moral hairs? Perhaps, but it did allow me to
    see how his behavior would develop.

    Well, here in RPD we see him sort of nicening up, fit fully. Over in
    RPF+L, he's positively rabid. Thje difference is that he's unchecked
    over there and therefor vents. Here, he's subject to scrutiny,
    criticism and some retaliation. He has to adjust; but only just
    enough.

    Ignoring him completely will probably send him over the edge... to
    what? If that happens, he will have brought it on himself. No"making
    nice" efforts will work, as he needs to spew, curse calumnify and
    categorize all others. He has to win. No draws or treaties, for MS
    it's war.

    One interesting thing that crops up now and then, is his need to suck
    up to someone he regards as more powerful. Richard Knoppow is one.
    Since he doesn't know anything about some othyers of long standing who
    flow in and out of discussions over time and have not been seen for
    years in some cases, he devalues them and tries to diminish them in
    some instances. Recently he gave his opinion of John Douglas work, as
    seen on his site. His opinion, being ngative, and a bit nasty, was
    supposed to scare John and/or provoke him into a response. He doesn't
    know who he's dealing with.

    I saw the pictures of his, MS's< that he has on an Ilford site. I had
    to laugh, as he put up a load of Zone system subject matter; you know,
    weathered bulding parts, "broken windows and empty hallways", All it
    was lacking was a "pale dead moon in a sky full of Gray".

    His inconsistencies and neediness are appalling. He's not behaving in
    any normal or expected way. Trying to encourage him by "making nice"
    is doomed. He's too old and set in his ways to be changed. So
    killfile, ignore or leave the newsgroup. Thanks to MS and some
    others, some of our best are somewhere else.


    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Oct 14, 2004
    #3
  4. Robert Vervoordt

    Travis Porco Guest

    "Zone system subject matter"?

    Not sure I get it. Do you mean things for which the ZS would be considered
    appropriate? Do you mean "trite, hackneyed" imitation of Minor White and
    Ansel Adams?

    Speaking of pale moons, there is a lunar eclipse coming up later this month.
    Is anyone going to try to shoot it?
     
    Travis Porco, Oct 14, 2004
    #4
  5. Robert Vervoordt

    Jim Phelps Guest

    Robert,

    I think you may be somewhat correct on the anticipated outcome of
    ignoring the scar'd one. Some time ago, in one of his early rants and raves
    through the rec.photo newsgroups, he was quickly and rather unabashedly
    ignored and told to sit in the corner and color. Shortly after this, people
    were becoming victimized, terrorized, stalked and threatened by 'anonymous'
    sources. I believe it was the doing of ole scarface himself.

    I have posted my reasons for believing it was he in the past. No need to
    rehash again here. I've only recently seen Henry Posner begin to venture
    into these waters once again (thank you Henry). Strange since this recent
    round of ignoring him I've seen in an increase in spoofed SI submission in
    the 35mm group. Things that make you go Hmmm!

    I believe the only way we can get rid of him for now (I believe his sick
    mind and antisocial behavior will constantly force him back) is complete and
    utter ignorance of him and his posts. All of it. It was amazing to see a
    post of his go completely unanswered. It quite likely ticked him off to no
    end. Possibly the resulting tantrum was what you posted to start this
    thread. We need to ignore him. All of us. Make like he don't exist.

    If he comes back under a new handle, we'll be able to figure it out in
    short order. It'll be the same old message.

    Jim
     
    Jim Phelps, Oct 14, 2004
    #5

  6. It was more than deserved.
     
    Uranium Committee, Oct 14, 2004
    #6
  7. Well, he posted another in the same vein, over there, to the same
    original poster. Something set him off.
    Right, Uranium Herd was a quick reveal.
    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Oct 15, 2004
    #7
  8. Robert Vervoordt

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:23:10 +0200, "Jim Phelps" <>
    : wrote:

    : >Robert,
    : >
    : > I think you may be somewhat correct on the anticipated outcome of
    : >ignoring the scar'd one. Some time ago, in one of his early rants and raves
    : >through the rec.photo newsgroups, he was quickly and rather unabashedly
    : >ignored and told to sit in the corner and color. Shortly after this, people
    : >were becoming victimized, terrorized, stalked and threatened by 'anonymous'
    : >sources. I believe it was the doing of ole scarface himself.
    : >
    : > I have posted my reasons for believing it was he in the past. No need to
    : >rehash again here. I've only recently seen Henry Posner begin to venture
    : >into these waters once again (thank you Henry). Strange since this recent
    : >round of ignoring him I've seen in an increase in spoofed SI submission in
    : >the 35mm group. Things that make you go Hmmm!
    : >
    : > I believe the only way we can get rid of him for now (I believe his sick
    : >mind and antisocial behavior will constantly force him back) is complete and
    : >utter ignorance of him and his posts. All of it. It was amazing to see a
    : >post of his go completely unanswered. It quite likely ticked him off to no
    : >end. Possibly the resulting tantrum was what you posted to start this
    : >thread. We need to ignore him. All of us. Make like he don't exist.

    : Well, he posted another in the same vein, over there, to the same
    : original poster. Something set him off.

    I think it's desperation. He's desperate for attention and will lash out to try
    and get it. Expect to see him get even more obnoxious in the next few weeks.
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Oct 15, 2004
    #8
  9.  
    Uranium Committee, Oct 15, 2004
    #9
  10. Yes.

    He's completely oblivious of the sensibilities he shares withothers.
    He seems to think he's so unique, that he can just rely, unthinkingly
    on his "feelings" when he shoots and that his results will be just
    fine. All of us have a commonality of experince, conditioning and
    basic perceptual faculties. When we find ourselves admiring someone
    else's work, those factors are all engaged. So, too with him; hejust
    will never admit it.

    The subject matter reflects this. His reliance on a shouldering film
    and some form of compensation in development as well as somewhat
    generous exposure outs him into the realm of Zone practice. The fact
    that he does this in 35mm and not LF is why he contends that he is
    different, The use of 35mm does require some modification from early
    Zone practice with LF, but does not change the fact that his work is
    consistent with core ZS theory and some practices. His conclusion
    that his work is different seems to be the taking off point for his
    jump to the conclusion that he is better than all others, nay the
    greatest, as he has professed.
    I like to see what others have done with their more suitable
    equipment, and knowledge. I await something stunning from Mr.
    Covington, among others. Sometimes appreciation is a rewarding
    activity.

    Oh, the lines about the subjects he directed our attention are from a
    Judy Collins song.


    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Oct 15, 2004
    #10
  11. Robert Vervoordt

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:48:36 -0000, (Travis
    : Porco) wrote:

    : >In article <>,
    : >>On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:26:36 -0500, Peter De Smidt
    : >
    : >...
    : >
    : >>I saw the pictures of his, MS's< that he has on an Ilford site. I had
    : >>to laugh, as he put up a load of Zone system subject matter; you know,
    : >>weathered bulding parts, "broken windows and empty hallways", All it
    : >>was lacking was a "pale dead moon in a sky full of Gray".
    : >
    : >"Zone system subject matter"?
    : >
    : >Not sure I get it. Do you mean things for which the ZS would be considered
    : >appropriate?

    : Yes.

    : >Do you mean "trite, hackneyed" imitation of Minor White and
    : >Ansel Adams?

    : Yes.

    : He's completely oblivious of the sensibilities he shares withothers.
    : He seems to think he's so unique, that he can just rely, unthinkingly
    : on his "feelings" when he shoots and that his results will be just
    : fine. All of us have a commonality of experince, conditioning and
    : basic perceptual faculties. When we find ourselves admiring someone
    : else's work, those factors are all engaged. So, too with him; hejust
    : will never admit it.

    This could be the reason photographs the scenes he does. I hink he avoids
    situations to which his approach won't work well.


    : The subject matter reflects this. His reliance on a shouldering film
    : and some form of compensation in development as well as somewhat
    : generous exposure outs him into the realm of Zone practice. The fact
    : that he does this in 35mm and not LF is why he contends that he is
    : different, The use of 35mm does require some modification from early
    : Zone practice with LF, but does not change the fact that his work is
    : consistent with core ZS theory and some practices. His conclusion
    : that his work is different seems to be the taking off point for his
    : jump to the conclusion that he is better than all others, nay the
    : greatest, as he has professed.

    I've also long felt and have stated the reason he insists on using film
    with distinct shouldering is that he kind of meters on the shadow and then
    bounces that highlights off of the shoulder of the film. I do agree with his
    use of dilute developers. I just disagree with using the dilution to control
    the highlights of the negative and prefer to use development time.
    : >
    : >Speaking of pale moons, there is a lunar eclipse coming up later this month.
    : >Is anyone going to try to shoot it?

    : I like to see what others have done with their more suitable
    : equipment, and knowledge. I await something stunning from Mr.
    : Covington, among others. Sometimes appreciation is a rewarding
    : activity.

    : Oh, the lines about the subjects he directed our attention are from a
    : Judy Collins song.


    : Robert Vervoordt, MFA

    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Oct 15, 2004
    #11
  12. And that's a restriction. Perhaps one could be kind and call it a
    selection. Whatever, it imposes limits on his work.
    I work this way a lot, too. It's a safe and lazy way to do snapshots.

    In motion picture work, you do have to get it right in the camera.
    While there are means available in the lab, they are much less varied
    or extensive. That's why there is the resort to lighting fill and
    scrimming on a set or controllable location. Add to that, the almost
    complete reliance on the Cinematographer's ability to prexisualize the
    final result, all the way to the projection print, and you'll see why
    the Zone System has applications beyond landscapes, broken windows and
    LF, in general.
    Yeah, well there are a lot of techniques axailable to effect control
    of our still work that the MP guys can't access without great cost,
    control and effort. Add in the effect of the Producer with his demons
    and you'll appreciate what even a pedestrian DP achieves. MS probably
    hates them because their heroic achievements put his efforts in their
    place. He hasn't learned the value of appreciation of others; and so,
    he's trapped in the errors of his own mind.
    I think the song ends with:

    "Help the needy and show them the way.
    Human kindness is overflowing, and I think it's gonna rain today."

    I know you and I have different political orientations, we probably
    have some in photography as well, but if you look into what we have
    expressed about the less fortunate, we might still find common ground.
    This is because we, and many in this NG are willing to discuss with
    some openness to other's value.

    There is where MS has his greatest failing; and it doesn't bode well
    for his future success. Nor does it bode well for your hope and
    effort to get him to reform.

    When you think of replying to him in the future, just say no.

    Regards


    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Oct 15, 2004
    #12
  13. _Why_ are you guys still talking about this here? If you must obsess,
    why not take it to private email? Neither of you can have any Lagavulin
    tonight!

    -Peter
     
    Peter De Smidt, Oct 15, 2004
    #13
  14. You can't stop me, I don't live near you!! ;-?

    What's Lagavulin?



    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Oct 15, 2004
    #14
  15. Robert Vervoordt

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:11:47 -0500, Peter De Smidt

    : >_Why_ are you guys still talking about this here? If you must obsess,
    : >why not take it to private email? Neither of you can have any Lagavulin
    : >tonight!
    : >
    : >-Peter

    : You can't stop me, I don't live near you!! ;-?

    : What's Lagavulin?

    I don't know but I agree that this thread needs to end now.
    --




    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
     
    Frank Pittel, Oct 15, 2004
    #15
  16. Robert Vervoordt

    Jim Phelps Guest

    A very fine (read: expensive, as a bottle can reach 75 - 90 dollars or more)
    single malt Scotch Whiskey, at least old enough to learn to drive (in the
    U.S. - 16 years).
     
    Jim Phelps, Oct 15, 2004
    #16
  17. Yeah, I've said what I meant. G'night.


    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Oct 15, 2004
    #17
  18. Oh, well, I'll be sticking to Kefir and Pau D'Arco tonight.

    Thanks for the heads up.


    Robert Vervoordt, MFA
     
    Robert Vervoordt, Oct 15, 2004
    #18
  19. Single malt Scotch whisky (no 'e'), about $70/fifth last time I checked.

    _Miles_ out of my price range -- the only singles I can afford, even
    when my budget is in "normal" condition, are Glen Burney and Speyburn --
    and the only place I've ever seen Glen Burney was in a duty free shop at
    the Canadian border, close to twenty years ago. Lately, I've put my
    money on John Barr Gold Label, a very nice and quite economical blend (a
    lot like Teacher's, but a couple dollars less per bottle).

    --
    I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
    -- E. J. Fudd, 1954

    Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
    Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
    Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

    Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
    and don't expect them to be perfect.
     
    Donald Qualls, Oct 15, 2004
    #19
  20. Not so fast, there. I am documenting old factories in my home town,
    that's all. They are being toen down day by day. The broken windows I
    shot Sunday Oct 10th were gone Monday Oct 11th. I have been on the
    inside of the building (B&T Metals) and documented all the old
    machinery and decay. It has NOTHING to do with 'Minor White and Ansel
    Adams'. NOTHING. I just happen to be interested in these old
    structures and factories.

    Since I have seen veru little of such work by 'Minor White and Ansel
    Adams', I can hardly be doing imitations of them.
    As I said, my interests are my own. If others like my photos, fine. If
    not, fine. I'm primarily interested in pleasing myself and recording
    these soon-to-be-gone buildings. One of the primary values of
    photography is preserving the past.
    No, it doesn't. Dr. Paul Wolff, an early Leica enthusiast, advocated
    'generous exposre and gentle development' in the 1930's, long before
    Adams or White became well-known.

    http://www.getty.edu/art/collections/bio/a1497-1.html
    It has NOTHING to do with 'core ZS theory and some practices'. It has
    to do with sound, traditional miniature practice.
    Nothing of the sort is true.
     
    Uranium Committee, Oct 15, 2004
    #20
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