From the PMA show floor

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Lisa Horton, Feb 13, 2004.

  1. Lisa Horton

    Lisa Horton Guest

    Just a few tidbits. This show is so huge that one day is time enough
    only for a quick overview.

    First stop, Canon booth of course. Had an interesting talk with a Canon
    rep. When I mentioned that I and many of my internet cohorts continue
    to lust after the mythical EOS 3 digital, he became amused and slightly
    agitated. He insisted that this long rumored beast "is nothing to do
    with us! We've never said anything about that", which I found to be a
    slightly interesting response. He asked what such a camera would have
    that wasn't already covered by the 1D series. I picked up a 1D and said
    "it would end here", making a slicing motion where the bottom of an EOS
    3 would be, "and it would have ECF". He agreed that might be nice, and
    then we talked about ECF and DSLR's. He said that Canon hadn't heard
    much demand for it, and that for the Elan 7/7e, sales were about 50/50,
    or slightly more for the non ECF version. He also mentioned that the
    increased price from adding ECF would, in Canon's opinion, put them at a
    lesser advantage in a very competitive and price conscious market.

    We then talked at length about the new 75-300DO/IS. Commenting on it's
    substantial weight, I said that I thought DO translated to small and
    light, and he corrected me "compact, but not lighter". The lens was
    indeed a good amount shorter than the 70-300 consumer zoom, although
    about half again fatter. I asked about the haloing with point light
    sources that I'd seen mentioned in the newsgroups, and he said that it
    was an issue only in very specific and very very uncommon
    circumstances. I didn't press him further, but did take photos of point
    light sources against a black background with the lens on my camera.
    You can see the fresnel like lines inside the lens when viewing from a
    certain angle, very strange.

    We talked too about how the DO line fits in the context of Canon's other
    lens lines, specifically the L line. He was adamant that the L
    designation was not a quality designator, but a technology designator.
    If a lens has one or more of UD glass elements, fluorite elements, or
    ground (not glass molded) aspheric elements, it's an L lens. He
    mentioned a couple of non L lenses that he felt were as good as L lenses
    in quality, but now I've forgotten which they were (!). At any rate,
    the DO line, signified by a bright green paint ring, are considered by
    Canon to be professional lenses, and they can incorporate L
    technologies, but are a separate series. IOW, without directly saying
    so, the message was "separate, but equal".

    I really really want a 1D Mk II....

    Next up was the Nikon booth, where I had only one goal: to see and
    handle a D70. I did, and all I can say is Wow! This camera appears at
    first glance to totally blow away the DRebel. It's certainly more
    substantial and has a more "quality" feel. And it has two dials, a very
    large advantage. AF seemed fast and certain. The interface was of
    course, completely confusing to me, not being a Nikon shooter. Even so
    I was immediately able to find P/AV/Manual modes and shutter/aperture.

    This camera is a very impressive response to the DRebel, and clearly
    establishes a new low end DSLR leader. To completely answer, Canon
    must, IMO, upgrade the 10D AND rethink the DRebel completely. Or drop
    both the 10D and DRebel in price substantially, which I'm guessing would
    be the easier and more attractive option for Canon. I'm thinking
    something like $800 tops for the DRebel, and $1200 to maybe $1300 for
    the 10D.

    The Minolta DSLR was there, under glass. For all we know it could have
    been a clay model :) The Konica/Minolta booth had the most plushly
    padded carpet though. Speaking of Konoltica, looking over the product
    lines in the booth, the synergy of the merger was more apparent. Think
    of Fuji, who cover everything from film and paper to film cameras to
    digital cameras. Now add a good line of inkjet photo papers and it
    starts to look like a pretty viable combination in turbulent times.
    Pity about the name and logo though.

    One thing that struck me again from seeing this show is that photography
    is big business. There were a lot of very big, big money booths, with
    very large staffs. There is quite a bit of money being made by the
    "cheap knock off" companies. The relative size and expense of the
    booths hints that although professionals and advanced amateurs may be a
    relatively small section of the overall market, we consume an outsize
    share of products and services other than basic D&P and albums.

    Lisa Horton, Feb 13, 2004
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  2. Thanks for the report, Lisa.
    This has AFAIK always been Canon's position. For example, the 24/3.5
    TS-E is an L lens because it has an aspherical element, but the 45/2.8
    and 90/2.8 TS-E lenses are not, because they need none of the
    "qualifying" elements. It is however of significance that they come with
    lens hood and pouch, which normally only come with the L series.

    Shame you can't recall the other lenses he mentioned. Perhaps someone
    else can find a tame Canon rep to interrogate.
    David Littlewood, Feb 13, 2004
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  3. Lisa Horton

    Adam F Guest

    under glass? :p

    did you get a brochure with the specs? ;)

    adam f
    Adam F, Feb 13, 2004
  4. Lisa Horton

    Ed E. Guest

    Thanks for the write-up, Lisa. That was nicely done.
    Ed E., Feb 13, 2004
  5. Lisa Horton

    Bill Hilton Guest

    From: Lisa Horton
    Nice report Lisa, thanks ... couple of remarks ...
    It would be one pound lighter, cost about half as much yet have 90% of the
    features of the 1D series, if it's parallel to the film cameras (ie, EOS 3 vs
    1V). The extra weight is a real hassle for many of us with heavy kits who
    don't need the ultra-high speed motor drive or the extra weatherproofing (or at
    least don't feel they are worth double the price).
    I'd vote for $499 for the dReb and $999 for the 10D, which would be nice price
    points and cause Nikon some real heartburn :)
    That was COLD ... :) Aunt Bea and his friends won't be happy ...

    Thanks for the report ... the biggest disappointment to me was lack of a 10D
    replacement/upgrade from Canon.

    Bill Hilton, Feb 13, 2004
  6. Lisa Horton

    Lisa Horton Guest

    Now that you mention them, the 45 and 90 TS-E lenses were ones that he
    mentioned as L quality without the designation. He mentioned the 85/1.2
    as an L lens that was an L because of technology rather than image

    Lisa Horton, Feb 13, 2004
  7. Lisa Horton

    Lisa Horton Guest

    I couldn't find one, although there may have been one available for more
    dedicated seekers.

    Lisa Horton, Feb 13, 2004
  8. Lisa Horton

    Lisa Horton Guest

    I can see you feel like I do Bill :) As it is, I suppose the 1D Mk II
    is the closest we'll see any time soon. One could take the vehemence of
    his denial as, perhaps, a hint about things to come.
    I've got to think that this very early announcement, like that of the
    Starkist D, is meant to keep the so far faithful from jumping ship. I
    would think that by the fall release date, we could even see substantial

    Isn't Photokina later this year? :)

    Lisa Horton, Feb 13, 2004
  9. Lisa Horton

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    It's only 70 grams heavier than the old 70-300 IS, which could be worthwhile
    if the new DO is better built. Do you think it is? Please let us know
    how your test pictures turn out, because this DO is the most exciting lens
    (for me) to appear over the last year.
    Yes, and (except for no 75-300 DO IS) it has a better lens selection.
    The Nikkor 18-70/3.5-4.5 DX (27-105mm equivalent) is far more attractive
    than Canon's crappy 18-55/3.5-5.6 DX, or limited-range 17-40/4 L.
    Yes. I was expecting a 10D update announced at PMA, but it didn't happen.
    I suppose until the Nikon D70 is available in quantity, Canon really has
    no need to respond. The 10D still sells well, doesn't it? And it still
    beats everything else at comparable pixel counts.

    Thanks for the trip report, Lisa.
    Bill Tuthill, Feb 13, 2004
  10. Lisa Horton

    The Dave© Guest

    EXcellent report. Thanks. This was better done and more concise than
    anything else I've read.
    The Dave©, Feb 13, 2004
  11. Anything from Pentax?
, Feb 13, 2004
  12. That (and the 50/1.0) are the kind of product that remind me of Dr
    Johnson's remark that "[it] is like a dog's walking on his hinder legs.
    It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."
    Actually, on looking at the MTF curves, the 85/1.2 does not seem nearly
    as bad as the 50/1.0.

    The "it", BTW, was a woman preaching. Dr J was nothing if not an
    outspoken advocate of the dubious standards of the time.

    Thanks for this confirmation, Lisa; I have the 24 and 45 TS-E lenses,
    and it is hard to tell them apart (except of course from the obvious
    focal length difference). I always imagined the 90/2.8 would be of
    similar quality.
    David Littlewood, Feb 13, 2004
  13. Lisa Horton

    Alan Browne Guest

    <big snip?
    I finally had time to read the whole thing. Thanks Lisa, looking
    forward to the other instllments too!!!

    Alan Browne, Feb 13, 2004
  14. Lisa Horton

    ThomasH Guest

    Thanks a lot for the excellent report, I really envy
    you! I still hope to "hop" to PMA on Sat eve to see it
    on Sunday, but I suspect, I am out of luck!

    Especially I appreciate your decision to take a look at
    Nikon as well. I am meanwhile very committed to keep one
    Nikon and one Canon body, they have both good features
    to offer. Have you handled the 12-24mm DX zoom? :)

    Should you stay there, I would be happy to hear your
    opinion about some leading EVF: PowerShor Pro 1, Nikon
    8700 and of course the Minolta A2. Konica-Minolta,
    pardon me :)

    ThomasH, Feb 13, 2004
  15. Lisa Horton

    deryck lant Guest

    Thanks Lisa. Good to have a practical photographers viewpoint.

    deryck lant, Feb 13, 2004
  16. Lisa Horton

    Lisa Horton Guest

    Oh yes, it's substantially more, well, substantial than the current
    75-300. Obviously a different line. My test pix were just of lights
    against a black ceiling, testing for the halo effect which I did not
    see. I leave the real lens testing to those competent to do it, a group
    which does not include me :)
    Well I don't expect them to respond tomorrow, but I would be surprised
    if there wasn't some answer by Christmas.

    Lisa Horton, Feb 14, 2004
  17. Lisa Horton

    Lisa Horton Guest

    No, I didn't look into Nikon lenses at all, they don't fit my cameras :)
    Well, I do have some comments on the Pro 1 and S1 IS in my version of this report, but I didn't look at the
    others you mentioned.

    Lisa Horton, Feb 14, 2004
  18. Lisa Horton

    ThomasH Guest

    Another version? :)
    I will than re-enroll to! Since the number
    of messages there is so staggering and they are often so
    unrelated to photography, I removed this newsgropup...

    ThomasH, Feb 14, 2004
  19. Lisa Horton

    Lisa Horton Guest

    Well, I felt it improper to comment on non SLR digitals in this group :)

    Lisa Horton, Feb 14, 2004
  20. Lisa Horton

    Dallas Guest

    Lisa Horton said:


    Thanks for the feedback, Lisa. Going to that show must be like landing on
    some kind of parallel dimension! Did you take any other photos? Care to
    show us all what we're missing? :)
    Dallas, Feb 14, 2004
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