Grain on slide film and print film the same?

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Mike, Sep 19, 2003.

  1. Mike

    Mike Guest

    Is the grain on slide film and print film the same if they are of the same
    speed?
    Just wondering if it would be cheaper or better to go to slide film
    thanks for everyones time

    Mike K
     
    Mike, Sep 19, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertisements

  2. Hi Mike
    Nope. It varies by specific film.

    Also: slide film is much fussier as to exposure. Negative
    film is much less so.

    Stan
     
    Stanley Krute, Sep 19, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. This is an interesting question. It is my understanding that 100 ISO
    slide (E6) film has finer grain that 100 ISO print (C41) film, and is
    sharper for sharper lenses, but 400 and higher ISO print film has finer
    grain than 400 or higher slide film. Can anyone clear this up? Thanks in
    advance.

    Cody H.

    Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain
    in you, and that your joy might be full.
    ==================================


    Group: rec.photo.equipment.35mm Date: Fri, Sep 19, 2003, 5:55pm (CDT+5)
    From: (Stanley Krute)

    Nope. It varies by specific film.
    Also: slide film is much fussier as to exposure. Negative
    film is much less so.
    Stan

    Hi Mike

    Is the grain on slide film and print film the same if they are of the
    same speed?


    http://community.webtv.net/AnOvercomer02/Truth
     
    AnOvercomer02, Sep 19, 2003
    #3
  4. Mike

    Rafe B. Guest


    The conventional wisdom (and my experience) is that --
    at low ISOs, at least -- slide film is less grainy thant print film.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    Rafe B., Sep 20, 2003
    #4
  5. I can vouch for the kodak HD400 and the plain gold 400 having finer grain than Elitechrome 400.
    Never did a comarison on the 100asa though.

    Martin

    This is an interesting question. It is my understanding that 100 ISO
    slide (E6) film has finer grain that 100 ISO print (C41) film, and is
    sharper for sharper lenses, but 400 and higher ISO print film has finer
    grain than 400 or higher slide film. Can anyone clear this up? Thanks in
    advance.

    Cody H.

    Jhn 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain
    in you, and that your joy might be full.
    ==================================


    Group: rec.photo.equipment.35mm Date: Fri, Sep 19, 2003, 5:55pm (CDT+5)
    From: (Stanley Krute)

    Nope. It varies by specific film.
    Also: slide film is much fussier as to exposure. Negative
    film is much less so.
    Stan

    Hi Mike

    Is the grain on slide film and print film the same if they are of the
    same speed?


    http://community.webtv.net/AnOvercomer02/Truth
     
    Martin Riddle, Sep 20, 2003
    #5
  6. Mike

    bmoag Guest

    There are many variables that effect apparent graininess of a film. While it
    used to be consistently true that slower films had finer grain this is not
    always the case any more. There have been great advances in emuslion
    technology such that many 400 speed films, particularly color negative
    films, have much less apparent grain than older 50 speed films and are
    indistinguishable under most circumstances from 100 speed films. Subject
    matter, over/under exposure, quality of development are major factors also
    in the appearance of graininess in a slide or negative.
     
    bmoag, Sep 20, 2003
    #6
  7. Mike

    Snaps! Guest

    Film grain is getting more and more subjective. At the beginning it was the
    shape of silver halide, then it was the dye arrangement of layered colour
    film. There is no grain I can perceive in clear transparency so the grain
    must therefore be in the layers of the dyes. Having said that, I regularly
    scan 120 negative film and the grain is obnoxious in darker areas. I use a
    product called "GEM" from applied science fiction to smooth it out. So I
    guess it depends on wether or not you do your own printing and how,
    precisely you do it, if grain is to become a problem.

    Kodachrome is supposed to be the lowest grain film in the realm. In recent
    times, negative films have gotten better and slide films gotten worse but as
    a general rule of thumb, Trannies are finer grained but have less of a
    contrast range than print film. Getting Cibachrome prints from a
    transparency is a very costly proposition so if you intend to print your
    work... Stick with print film, you can scan this too.

    Doug
     
    Snaps!, Sep 20, 2003
    #7
  8. That would have to be a pre-1950 50 speed film. Every 400-speed film I've
    scanned has been total crap. Konica Impressa 50 is the only color negative
    film I've tried that's even close to the Fuji 100F slide films, and it's
    color rendition is problematic, to say the least.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Sep 20, 2003
    #8
  9. My general impression is that they're fairly comparable, but not
    exactly the same. The main difference is that the mask of a negative
    film allows th mfrs to get away with things in sensitization that
    cannot be done with slide films, mostly though, this benefits faster
    films. I other words, 400 speed negative materials are somewhat better
    than 400 speed slide films, but at the other end of the scale, the
    slow slide films 25-100 ISO) are decidely superior to negative
    materials. In the 100-200 speed range, it's about even.
     
    Michael Scarpitti, Sep 20, 2003
    #9
  10. Mike

    Lewis Lang Guest

    SNIPS
    Not true at all. I have no idea how old you are or what your experience is with
    slide films Doug, but your average everyday 100 speed slide film used to have
    an RMS of 11. Now that number would be considered quite grainy as every new
    slide film seems to have an RMS of 8 (or even 7?). It is unfortunate that
    supposedly Kodachrome has increased in grain over the years (don't have the
    link handy but) K64 used to have an RMS of 10 (considered to be quite fine, now
    its probably 11 if not 12. Whether this is due to a change in the film,
    development, or something else I don't know. I do know that at one time K64
    used to be _nearly_ as fine grained as K25. I've even seen K25 that was grainy
    but that was only under certain conditions (I believe it was a friends low
    light city scape, but that was years ago, so I'm not sure about it).

    As per the original posters question, unless you are doing large blow ups
    (11x14"/16x20" and beyond) almost any slide or color negative film should be
    more than satisfactory for fine enough grain - unless you examine grain w/ your
    eyeball scraping the print or with a magnifier/microscope ;-) over the print -
    if your that much of a stickler for finr grain at such a slow speed you'd be
    better satisfied with both the finer grain and smoother tonality of alarger
    (medium) format film.

    I still find 400 speed color negative film not as sharp or fine grained as the
    200 speed color neg film, but I am an "eye scraper" who refuses to go up to
    medium format unless I have to.

    Color neg film has more lattitude for over and under exposure and loves
    over-exposure whereas a slide film will just white out with detail
    unretrievable lost in over exposed areas so, besides the obvious caveat that
    you should stick with print film when your final output is prints (depspite the
    fact that some scanned slide outputted onto photographic prints look awfully
    good nowadays), you are probably better off w/ color neg film if your exposure
    habits are beginner level and/or sloppy.

    Each film is unique and should be chosen for its unique characteristics. Try
    both and see the kind of results you get. Judge for yourself. Go for the look
    (and best attributes of a particular film) that suits you best.

    Martin Parr shoots color negative film (he used to shoot Agfa Ultra 50, a now
    defunct ultra saturated color neg film) which is about as far from slide film
    and classic black and white (not to mention digital) that you can get. But he
    is more in the range of an "artist" (not to start up that debate again :-() and
    so chooses what works best for his style and vision. So should you - regardless
    of which general type and/or specific brand of film you go with ;-) :).

    Regards,

    Lewis

    Check out my photos at "LEWISVISION":

    http://members.aol.com/Lewisvisn/home.htm

    Remove "nospam" to reply
     
    Lewis Lang, Sep 20, 2003
    #10
  11. Mike

    Lewis Lang Guest

    Subject: Re: Grain on slide film and print film the same?
    I don't know if this is true for Impressa 50. Rated at E.I. 32? or below (I
    believe my friend may have rated it at E.I. 12 or 16) it outshone Ektar 25 in
    the fine grain department. But Fuji's newest slide films are rated at RMS 8 or
    7? so they may be catching up in the fine grain department.

    A word of note - RMS ("root mean square" ameasure of granularity/changes in
    density?) is not the same for color negative films and color slide films. There
    is a _rough_ conversion of 2 or 2.5 times but I'm not sure exactly. So a "9"
    RMS color slide film is not equivalent to a "9" RMS color negative film, the
    "9" color slide film might be more equivalent to a "4". But these are
    manufacturer ratings and don't alway hold to actual experience. My past
    experience is that Agfa films seem much grainier than their rated RMS - whether
    this has changed more recently, well, I don't know...

    Regards,

    Lewis

    Check out my photos at "LEWISVISION":

    http://members.aol.com/Lewisvisn/home.htm

    Remove "nospam" to reply
     
    Lewis Lang, Sep 20, 2003
    #11
  12. Where can I find the RMS of various films? On the mfrs. websites? You've
    really got my curiosity up, now that you mention Agfa. Their films that I
    was using a few years ago did seem rather grainy, but the newer 100ISO
    "Ultra" seems very low in grain. I'd be interested if the RMS ratings have
    significantly changed.
     
    Skip Middleton, Sep 20, 2003
    #12
  13. Mike

    Lewis Lang Guest

    Subject: Re: Grain on slide film and print film the same?
    You'd have to check at each manufacturer's website for either a webpage or a
    PDF file that could be downloaded with the data information. If you're in the
    mmod you might consider calling Kodak (1-800-242-2424) or Fuji (don't have the
    # handy) for a tec/spec/data sheet on the film(s) your interested in and/or
    just ask when you call and they might be able to llok them up on their database
    or something (hopefully, sometimes you might get a tech rep who knows nothing
    or can't find it on a database and will have to transfer you to someone else.
    And to be honest with you I'm not sure if one manufacturer's RMS rating for
    color neg (or whatever type of film) is perfectly in sync w/ another's - its
    just Agfa that's one example of how (whatused to be anyway's) their RMS claims
    seem a bit off to me. Order/see a tec spec/datata sheet and see and/or shoot
    two different films of the same type from different manufacturer w/ the same
    supposed RMS and test it out for yourself. Their scales are logarythmic (I
    believe, but am not sure about this) so even within a so called/claimed number,
    two films with the same "number" might be vastly different in graininess ie.
    both films can be rated at RMS 4 but actually be a rounded off 4. One in fact
    can be a 4 or a 3.8? and the other film can be a 4.4 yet both are rated at an
    RMS of "4". RMS is a rough gage. The best way to tell if a film meets your
    granularity level needs is to actually shoot it and blow it up/magnify it.
    Apparent grain might also increase or decrease dependent upon individual color
    rendered, lighting levels/conditions, pcontrast of paper printed on (if color
    negative), sensitivity to development factors, what kind of scanner you used
    (if you scan the film before printing it out), the wind, and who won the World
    Series last year. In other words, you need to make your own tests/assesments
    and not just rely on manufacturer's data for any subtlety or real life
    correspondence.

    Regards,

    Lewis

    Check out my photos at "LEWISVISION":

    http://members.aol.com/Lewisvisn/home.htm

    Remove "nospam" to reply
     
    Lewis Lang, Sep 20, 2003
    #13
  14. Speaking of grain... Take a look at the back cover of CHICAGO magazine
    (curent issue) KORS perfume ad - for those who can get a look at it.. B&W
    head portrait..
    Was it done all digi, or film and then scanned for printing?...
    Looks like film to me... Look at the grain of the back ground...
    Let the jousting begin...

    Denny
    BTW, she is just plain gorgeous...
    <you probably couldn't stand to live with her, but gawd is she gorgeous>
     
    Dennis O'Connor, Sep 20, 2003
    #14
  15. Thanks, that sounds like something to do on a slow Saturday afternoon...
     
    Skip Middleton, Sep 20, 2003
    #15
  16. Mike

    Gordon Moat Guest

    As Lewis pointed out, each manufacturer has PDF files for film data, including
    RMS values. The Kodak stuff is easier to find in their professional areas of
    their site. The Fuji stuff sometimes can be tough to find, depending upon which
    film.
    A direct link to AGFA film information is at:

    <http://www.agfa.com/photo/products/film/>

    Also, I though you might be interested in their B/W photo competition, which
    might be something to try:


    Nelson's is no longer carrying the AGFA transparency films, due to slow sales.
    Does North County Camera have these, or do you order from B&H?

    Ciao!

    Gordon Moat
    Alliance Graphique Studio
    <http://www.allgstudio.com>
     
    Gordon Moat, Sep 20, 2003
    #16
  17. Thanks, Gordon!
     
    Skip Middleton, Sep 21, 2003
    #17
  18. Mike

    Lewis Lang Guest

    Subject: Re: Grain on slide film and print film the same?
    My pleasure, Skip :).


    Check out my photos at "LEWISVISION":

    http://members.aol.com/Lewisvisn/home.htm

    Remove "nospam" to reply
     
    Lewis Lang, Sep 21, 2003
    #18
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.