Have they given up on full size 35mm now?

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by BobF, Jun 24, 2007.

  1. BobF

    BobF Guest

    At least in the digital domain?

    I once predicted, as all the camera manufacturers brought out their 'bigger and
    better' devices every year, that we would all end up with 35mm film sized
    sensors.

    Now I think I was wrong. Well not at the time, since things were always getting
    bigger, but now things have changed.

    There are so many 3/4 size sensor cameras around, and so many lenses, that the
    full frame lenses are getting scarce. They are definitely in the minority in new
    manufacture.

    I was looking for full size lenses the other day for my old film camera, and
    realized that all the new and nifty lenses are 'digital' or part frame.

    And of course, we all see that Canon's newest camera is not full frame... and
    neither are their new lenses...

    I was seriously thinking of getting the 5D but I think now that I would be
    limited in choice of glass, and it seemed to me that most of the lenses that I
    would want, are not full frame.

    And the future sure looks small!

    Oh well, I guess 35x24 is not written in stone, and as I recall, the first 35mm
    cameras were brought out as "non-professional miniature cameras". In those days,
    the press carried some pretty big rigs! I wonder what they'd think of the 30D?

    At least the future will be cheaper!
     
    BobF, Jun 24, 2007
    #1
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  2. BobF

    Paul Furman Guest

    Not very many high end lenses are cropped. The thing is larger sensors
    will always cost more: the benefit of miniaturization is lost with full
    frame and it's the miniturization that makes things cheaper. Unless you
    have tens of thousands of dollars to spend, film still rules for medium
    or large format work so that won't dissapear, it's just that the sweet
    spot does seem to be a little less than full frame 35mm for most uses &
    budgets. If you don't have stationary subjects or lots of light, large
    format isn't very useful though. Speed, depth of field, resolution and
    butget are all still factors, we just have more options than we did 100
    years ago but the 100 year old solution still has it's usefulness.
     
    Paul Furman, Jun 24, 2007
    #2
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  3. BobF

    Alan Browne Guest

    Eh? For DSLR's they are mostly around 2/3 (APS-C) or maybe you're
    referring to 4/3 which is about half the size of a "FF" sensor/film
    (x,y) or 1/4 the surface area.
    Gee, a FF lens made in 2002 won't work anymore?
    Eh? The Canon 5D is still current, sports a FF sensor for 13 Mpix.

    Two of the new CZ lenses for Sony Alpha are FF and the previews of the
    pro Sony body show it with a massive prism housing ... suggests a FF or
    perhaps 1.3x crop sensor may be in there.
    1 for 1, yes, but product innovation will continue and the better
    equipment will be more expensive. Go figure.

    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Jun 24, 2007
    #3
  4. BobF

    Alan Browne Guest

    that the

    Eh? For DSLR's they are mostly around 2/3 (APS-C) or maybe you're
    referring to 4/3 which is about half the size of a "FF" sensor/film
    (x,y) or 1/4 the surface area.
    Gee, a FF lens made in 2002 won't work anymore?
    Eh? The Canon 5D is still current, sports a FF sensor for 13 Mpix.

    Two of the new CZ lenses for Sony Alpha are FF and the previews of the
    pro Sony body show it with a massive prism housing ... suggests a FF or
    perhaps 1.3x crop sensor may be in there.
    1 for 1, yes, but product innovation will continue and the better
    equipment will be more expensive. Go figure.

    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Jun 24, 2007
    #4
  5. BobF

    BobF Guest

    Whatever... I thought the new sensors were 3/4 area, the crop factor is from 1.5
    to 1.6 generally.
    What's that got to do with what I said? I said future lens development, not old
    lenses. Sure, there is nothing wrong with old lenses, but new designs will
    mostly be D type. Some new design lenses will have faster glass - may not even
    be glass, exactly.
    I said newest camera, not 5D... Isn't the 5D the only Canon FF digital? The
    newest model 1 mark 3 whatever is not.
    I haven't looked at Sony in a few months, can't wait to see their new camera. I
    have all 3 kinds of Minolta cameras, F9 film, Dimage P&S, and Sony alpha.
    I think that if you count inflation, things are always cheaper on the high tech
    side.

    Remember the 70s? I bought a reel-to-reel tape deck then for $1200, on sale
    from $2000... that would translate to $10,000 now! I think I made $120 a week
    then, now I make $1200.

    To record music today one only needs to spend about $2000 or $2500 to get a
    digital multi track studio with infinitely better quality. Going backwards, what
    could you get in 72 for $100?

    I think I paid $350 for my Mamiya-Sekor back then... in those days no one used
    zooms, it had a 55mm 1.4 or something. 3 weeks pay... a 5D today!
     
    BobF, Jun 25, 2007
    #5
  6. BobF

    PixelPix Guest

    Some are yes.... some are not. Many manufactures don't even want to
    play in the 3:4 DSLR area. I think that 2:3 still has the lions share
    of the market when compared to 3:4 and it doesn't look like reversing
    any time soon.


    See below....
    Why do you think they will mostly be D type? There are plenty of FF
    cams be they digital or film that are in use and will remain in use
    for quite some time.

    Canon's newest DSLR (1D Mk3) is not frame true, it is 1.3x.... but the
    couple right before that (400D & 30D) were 1.6x and the one right
    before that (5D) was FF. The next is most likely FF also, being the
    1DS Mk3 to replace the 1DS Mk2.... not to mention that the 5D is get
    an upgrade in the not too distant future.

    None of these cameras replace the other, they are all "most recent"
    models in their category. To imply that any particular sensor size
    cam's days are over just because the last one released was a different
    sensor size is just wrong.

    With regard to lenses.... Canon has a LARGE stable of excellent FF
    lenses that cover just about everything.... so there is no need to be
    releasing new lenses in most cases. Sure they are releasing EF-S
    lenses often, but there is no existing large set of these lenses like
    there are EF. BTW... some of Canon's most recent lenses are for full
    frame, the new 16-35/f2.8L for eg.

    Cheers

    Rusty
    My Photography Help Blog: http://blog.pixelpix.com.au
     
    PixelPix, Jun 25, 2007
    #6
  7. BobF

    Pudentame Guest

    It has to do with yield from the silicon wafers, and how flaws in the
    silicon affects the yield.

    If you can get 5 full frame sensors or 8 APS-C sensors out of a single
    wafer, how does a flaw in one of the sensor areas of the silicon affect
    yield?

    1/5 is 20% waste, 1/8 is 12.5% waste ... plus, you're more likely to get
    a flaw that is in the sensor area with the larger sensor.

    And the quantity of flaws increases when wafer size is increased.

    If you increase the wafer size so you can get 8 full size sensors from a
    blank, you're likely to end up with two flaws in the sensor areas ...
    probably not in the same sensor.

    2/8 = 1/4 = 25% waste, so you're actually worse off.

    That's one reason why Canon's full frame sensor cameras cost so much
    more, their cost for the sensors is a lot higher than for APS-C sensors.

    Full-frame sensors are going to have to wait until silicon blank
    manufacture improves.

    Additionally, full-frame lenses work just fine with APS-C sensors.

    I expect it will come someday, because they're approaching a point of
    diminishing returns for pixel density, i.e. they won't be able to keep
    cramming more and more pixels into the same area.

    Which means that eventually, they'll have to use a larger sensor area if
    the mega-pixel race is going to continue.

    But it may not be a 35mm frame.
     
    Pudentame, Jun 26, 2007
    #7
  8. BobF

    BobF Guest

    That's not exactly what I said... I said it looks like FF cameras are NOT coming
    out in droves, nor are the lenses. So perhaps their days are numbered, at least
    the semi-frame cameras won't disappear as I once thought. For a while. :)
     
    BobF, Jun 26, 2007
    #8
  9. BobF

    PixelPix Guest

    "nor are the lenses"

    There is no need to be bringing lenses out in droves since they
    already exist.
     
    PixelPix, Jun 26, 2007
    #9
  10. BobF

    Noons Guest

    FF lenses are coming out quite regularly. Even Nikon is releasing
    them now, although for a while their mentality was "aps-c is good".
    The new 70-200 2.8 is a gem of a lens and is FF. "G" lenses - no
    aperture
    ring - are here to stay, though. Unfortunately...

    Sony is looking at FF, so are Olympus and Pentax. It's inevitable.
    Most of Sony's Alpha lenses are FF. They wouldn't
    have done it if they only wanted to do aps-c in future.
     
    Noons, Jun 26, 2007
    #10
  11. For the consumer, that's true....but if you look at it from the
    manufacturer's viewpoint, there is a very good reason to bring out new
    lenses in droves......
     
    William Graham, Jun 26, 2007
    #11
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