Help needed answering HD format question

Discussion in 'Professional Video Production' started by Jim H, Jul 2, 2003.

  1. Jim H

    Jim H Guest

    Hi,

    First off, thanks in advance for your consideration in helping me find
    the answer to this question.

    A friend of mine (who is a post-production supervisor) and I have come
    to a sort of impasse on what should otherwise be a no-brainer, but
    isn't.
    result look any different than if I shot on VHS and DUBBED the VHS
    tape to HD?? <<

    PLEASE KEEP IN MIND that I'm not asking about how they will look
    DEPENDING on how I view them (HD monitor versus NTSC monitor) - I'm
    asking about if the INFORMATION on the tape is any different (better
    or worse) technically (color space, blacks, highlights, apparent
    resolution, etc). However, you're welcome to pitch in your thoughts
    about VIEWING the footage as well.

    I say they will technically be the same, because the resolution and
    color space of each native shooting format will be ALTERED by the
    DUBBING format in such a way as to "cancel out" the affect of the
    originating format.

    He says that the originated HD footage will look better dubbed to VHS
    than the VHS footage will when dubbed to HD.

    My feeling is that he is giving an answer based on his love for the HD
    origination format (certainly a justified love), and not really taking
    the true technical considerations into account when giving his answer.

    Please help! Any and all non-biased replies greatly appreciated.

    thank you very very much for your time!

    sincerely,

    jim hicks, seattle WA
     
    Jim H, Jul 2, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertisements

  2. Jim H

    Seattle Eric Guest

    Well, it >might< be analogous to asking "If I shot something on film,
    and transferred it to VHS, would it look any better than if I shot
    something on VHS and transferred to film?"

    I believe the acquiring medium trumps the dubbing medium.

    Whoa! Jimmy, it's J. Eric!
     
    Seattle Eric, Jul 2, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertisements

  3. Jim H

    Ron Charles Guest

    Footage shot on HD and dubbed to VHS will look remarkably better than
    footage shot on VHS and dubbed to HD.
    RON CHARLES
     
    Ron Charles, Jul 2, 2003
    #3
  4. The only thing that this proves is that a movie with a budget of 1,000,000$
    is better than a movie with a budget of 5$
     
    anthony.gosnell, Jul 2, 2003
    #4
  5. Jim H

    Chris Guest

    Its always a question of "Garbage in- garbage out" The lower resolution of
    VHS could never compare to the superior output of HD. Normally, the lower
    the price of the camera, the worse the quality of the glass in front of the
    camera. I have used several VHS clips in DVCAM footage and the result can be
    seen with the naked eye. Even viewed on a HD monitor, the results still look
    scruffy, compared to the other footage. As far as digital VHS compared to
    HD. Digital is not digital in all respects. One must remember that the
    original footage is still captured by an analogue CCD and then converted to
    digital. The amount of detail in digiVHS is low compared to say DV or HD.
    Also the signal to noise ration in domestic cameras cannot be compared at
    all.
    Chris
     
    Chris, Jul 2, 2003
    #5
  6. Jim H

    David Winter Guest

    Jim

    HDCAM cams tend to have slightly better glass than the best of the bestest
    VHS cams, but maybe if you compared on one hand a modular 800 line (SD) unit
    with broadcast lens and an S-VHS back using VHS tape to, on the other hand,
    an HDCAM "dumbed down" to have a standard SD broadcast lens. In those
    circumstances, the HDCAM would still have a much higher res CCD/optic block
    so the HDCAM would win even with identical glass - and that's just viewing
    in the monitor before anything goes to tape.

    Once you've gone to tape, well - what we can assume here is that BOTH setups
    would yield images much sharper and cleaner than VHS can store. But the
    HDCAM had the higher-res imager block, so at the end of the day, my take is
    that the HDCAM shot image would look nicests.

    Now, who's gonna set up this little demo! After all, HDCAMs ain't cheap to
    play games with!

    DW





    : Hi,
    :
    : First off, thanks in advance for your consideration in helping me find
    : the answer to this question.
    :
    : A friend of mine (who is a post-production supervisor) and I have come
    : to a sort of impasse on what should otherwise be a no-brainer, but
    : isn't.
    :
    : >> If I shot footage on HD and DUBBED the HDCAM tape to VHS, will the
    : result look any different than if I shot on VHS and DUBBED the VHS
    : tape to HD?? <<
    :
    : PLEASE KEEP IN MIND that I'm not asking about how they will look
    : DEPENDING on how I view them (HD monitor versus NTSC monitor) - I'm
    : asking about if the INFORMATION on the tape is any different (better
    : or worse) technically (color space, blacks, highlights, apparent
    : resolution, etc). However, you're welcome to pitch in your thoughts
    : about VIEWING the footage as well.
    :
    : I say they will technically be the same, because the resolution and
    : color space of each native shooting format will be ALTERED by the
    : DUBBING format in such a way as to "cancel out" the affect of the
    : originating format.
    :
    : He says that the originated HD footage will look better dubbed to VHS
    : than the VHS footage will when dubbed to HD.
    :
    : My feeling is that he is giving an answer based on his love for the HD
    : origination format (certainly a justified love), and not really taking
    : the true technical considerations into account when giving his answer.
    :
    : Please help! Any and all non-biased replies greatly appreciated.
    :
    : thank you very very much for your time!
    :
    : sincerely,
    :
    : jim hicks, seattle WA
     
    David Winter, Jul 11, 2003
    #6
  7. Jim H

    David Walton Guest

    Jim,
    First of the question is somewhat of a rhetorical question, since the
    answer depends largely on the viewing format and monitor Both VHS and
    HDCAM are recording formats, not cameras--though each format has
    camcorders that make and record moving pictures. Suppose you took the
    CAMERA portion of an HDCAM camcorder, then downcoverted the HD signal to
    NTSC and recorded it on a good quality VHS recorder. Then you took the
    camera portion of a VHS camcorder, then upconverted the signal to HD and
    recorded it on an HDCAM recorder. Then, to balance the comparison, you
    compared the two recordings on the same multican monitor, you would
    likely come to this conclusion:

    Many aspects of the VHS recording would be superior because of the
    superior camera used to make the comparison. Even the overall sharpness
    of the image might be better because of the superior edge processing of
    the HD camera. But the NTSC scan lines would be obvious. You're
    looking at standard definiton. Depending on the VHS camera used to make
    the HDCAM recording, you might have better resolution because the cheap
    VHS camera can usually produce more resolution than VHS can record,
    though not anywhere close to what HDCAM is capable of. Additionally any
    camera defects would also be recorded. The multiscan monitor would play
    back in the 1080i mode and you would not see the scan lines. Some
    people would even think they were looking at HD even though an SD camera
    made the original image.

    Now, if you used the SAME camera portion and recorded the signal to both
    tape formats simultaneously and then dubbed each recorded tape to the
    OTHER format (the VHS recording gets upconverted and dubbed to HDCAM
    and the HDCAM image gets downconverted and dubbed to VHS) you would have
    essentially the same information on each tape.

    The great equalizer becomes the viewing monitor and format.

    Dave
     
    David Walton, Jul 13, 2003
    #7
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.