Help with Kodak Hawkeye film

Discussion in 'Kodak' started by Murray, Jul 13, 2007.

  1. Murray

    Murray Guest

    I have 300' of Kodak Hawkeye Surveillance film
    (B&W) and the first roll is still in the camera.

    I was checking development times with some small
    pieces and was upset to see the emulsion reticulate
    and finally fall off the film in lumps.

    My initial reaction was to blame the tap water wash
    before and after the fixer, but I suspect it is
    something other than that as other films don't do it
    even though the local water supply is down to 18%
    capacity and is doubtless full of various salts.

    I cobbled up some hardener and used that pre and post
    developer but the emulsion is still reticulated on
    drying, (but stays on the film base). The hardeners
    were alum and/or formalin based.

    I am wondering if anyone has worked with this film
    succesfully and could tell me the developer fixer
    combinations that were best? Experimenting with films is
    all very well, but I want to have some pictures to
    show afterwards.

    All help appreciated.
    Murray
    Brisbane
     
    Murray, Jul 13, 2007
    #1
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  2. What's your wash temperature? If it is warmer than the development
    temp, you will get reticulation.

    Don't sweat the water table (at list for your film). Salt water
    does a better job of washing film than fresh water.

    Geoff.
     
    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jul 13, 2007
    #2
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  3. Geoffrey S. Mendelson spake thus:
    I can confirm that. Where reticulation is concerned, the culprit is
    *any* appreciable difference in temperature between baths. Keep it as
    consistent as possible. (And not too hot helps too ...)


    --
    Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order
    of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary
    and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa.
    This is an inviolable rule.

    - Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site
    (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)
     
    David Nebenzahl, Jul 13, 2007
    #3
  4. Have you any idea of the age of the film or its type
    number?
    I strongly suspect the film has been subjected to
    something unusual in its storage because modern films have
    very hard emulsions and are well bound to the support. Most
    motion picture type films are designed for automatic
    processing machines using temperatures up to 100F.
    Salts in the water tend to _reduce_ emulsion swelling
    so I don't think those are the problem. If the emulsion has
    was _not_ hardened for some reason you may have to process
    at a quite low temperature, around 65F, but, unless this
    film is very unusual I can't imagine its not being factory
    hardened.
    Also, you did not say what sort of process you are
    using. I would avoid highly alkaline developers like Rodinal
    but any standard B&W developer should work OK, most modern
    developers have reasonable pH. An acid stop bath has several
    advantages one of which is to reverse swelling in the
    developer.
    At any rate without more details one can only guess at
    what is happening.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Jul 14, 2007
    #4
  5. Murray

    Murray Guest

    OK - I think I have an answer.

    The tap water is cool enough now - our winter.
    It comes out at about 18 C. The baths were from the
    cupboard at 20C.

    The emulsion was lifting off in the developer now that
    I think about it more closely. Wash temperature is out
    of the equation.

    After dinner and a glass of think juice (armagnac)
    and a cigar to settle the angst, I got to thinking
    about the developer. I had, after all, only been
    trying sodium bisulphate as a stop and or a hypo
    eliminator, and only used the developer to be
    consistent with a typical 'session'.

    The developer was a 2-bath suggestion from APUG
    that contained salt (NaCl) phenidone and VitC and
    appealed to my sense of the unusual.

    That was a dismal failure but I kept it in the fridge
    as there was phenidone and vitC that could be useful
    for an experiment. I added the carbonate to activate
    it as a single bath and after a lot of fizzing it worked
    fine - except the emulsion fell off.

    The lamp lit above me as I thought to myself that the salt
    might be acting by osmosis on the gelatine, so before
    retiring for the night did a quick check with Diafine
    and the emulsion is no longer 'tender' to the touch.
    It isn't reticulated and looks like it would scan
    or print as normal used any other way. I still believe
    a hardener would be in order with this film somewhere in the
    process but not, obviously, as a pre-hardener with
    a 2-bath.

    Thanks for all the thoughts. I located some calgon
    today and will go down that path with the wash water
    experiments, too. The sodium bisufate might indeed
    be a very good (too good?) stop bath or hypo eliminator.
    I only mention that because that's what is sold here (Australia)
    to lower pool pH, not sulphite, as in the US. Much more
    acid. More so than bisulphite even. That, and I bought
    some, so I have to find a use for it :). That is what
    started the whole experiment off and revealed the emulsion
    vulnerability to salt. (I think.)

    I still have to finish the film in the camera, altho
    with 300' available the 15 frames I took today hardly make a dent
    in the supply, but I do have an economical streak, don't I? :)

    Another one for the learning curve.

    Thanks to all.


    Murray
    Brisbane
     
    Murray, Jul 14, 2007
    #5
  6. My gawd! Sodium bisulphate is the main ingredient in toilet-bowl cleaner. It
    results in an extremely acid solution. If you are averse to acetic acid as
    an ingredient of a stop bath, I suggest sodium bisulphite instead.

    H2SO4 0.1N pH 1.2
    H2SO3 0.1N pH 1.5

    Now for their salts, I am surprised at the difficulty of finding them. I
    could test some bisulphite with indicator paper, but I have no bisulphate.
     
    Jean-David Beyer, Jul 14, 2007
    #6
  7. Murray

    Murray Guest

    Yes, I was surprised myself when I did a google on
    these two and found that the bisulphate was passed
    by the FDA for a food additive. An acidifier, IIRC.

    In the referrences I saw bisulphite wasn't that low
    but bisulphate certainly was. OTOH one doesn't have
    to use molar concentration. Less would stop a film
    real dead, quick. QED. Bisulphate isn't called 'dry
    acid' for no reason I guess.

    If after fixing it would help hypo elimination,
    well so much the better. Like I said, I was only
    playing to see results. If I could use it instead
    of (say) acetic acid I'd be ahead because I haven't
    found an easy supply of that, yet.

    So, again your inputs were to the point but we were all
    missing the important clue. I didn't associate the salt
    until later and none of us would therefore suspect it
    as a culprit. All in the name of photo science :)

    Cheers.
    Murray
    Brisbane
     
    Murray, Jul 14, 2007
    #7
  8. Murray

    Murray Guest

    Yes, I was surprised myself when I did a google on
    these two and found that the bisulphate was passed
    by the FDA for a food additive. An acidifier, IIRC.

    In the referrences I saw bisulphite wasn't that low
    but bisulphate certainly was. OTOH one doesn't have
    to use molar concentration. Less would stop a film
    real dead, quick. QED. Bisulphate isn't called 'dry
    acid' for no reason I guess.

    If after fixing it would help hypo elimination,
    well so much the better. Like I said, I was only
    playing to see results. If I could use it instead
    of (say) acetic acid I'd be ahead because I haven't
    found an easy supply of that, yet.

    So, again your inputs were to the point but we were all
    missing the important clue. I didn't associate the salt
    until later and none of us would therefore suspect it
    as a culprit. All in the name of photo science :)

    Cheers.
    Murray
    Brisbane

    bisulphate.
     
    Murray, Jul 14, 2007
    #8
  9. Sodium bisul_fate_ is a pretty strong acid. I think you
    should stick with normal stop baths, typically about 2%
    Acetic acid. Sodium Bisul_fite_ makes a reasonable stop bath
    if you are sensitive to the odor of Acetic acid.
    Everyone wants to try something exotic but the reason
    most of the exotic is so is because it doesn't work. Stick
    with conventional developer, stop bath and a hardening
    fixing bath.
    Neither Sodium Bisulfate or Bisulfite is an effective
    wash aid. The best is about a 2% solution of Sodium Sulfite.
    Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent is Sodium sulfite buffered to
    neutral with Sodium bisulfite and the addition of two
    sequestering agents, EDTA Tetra-sodium salt, and Sodium
    Citrate. These are present to prevent the deposition of
    mineral salts in the water and sludging from alum in
    hardening fixer which can react with the sulfite to produce
    a hard to remove deposit.
    The advantage of buffering is that it results in neutral
    pH which minimises emulsion swelling and also retains the
    hardening action of Alum hardeners although it eliminates
    the binding action of alum for thiosulfate. An alkali bath
    will destroy the hardening and swell the emulsion.
    Most modern developers, for instance D-76, T-Max (both
    versions), HC-110, Ilford Microphen, etc., have relatively
    low pH and will not damage emulsions. If you want a very low
    pH developer use D-23.
    Sodium Sulfate is used for drain cleaner and AFAIK has
    no application in photography.
     
    Richard Knoppow, Jul 14, 2007
    #9
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