Help with Kodak Roll and sheet film pinkish coating!!

Discussion in 'Kodak' started by jjs, Feb 6, 2005.

  1. jjs

    jjs Guest

    Try hypo-clear, or if you have a developed negative you can spare, soak it
    in developer with occasional agitation. I'll bet that removes the pink.

    A side question - do you use soft water for washing?
    jjs, Feb 6, 2005
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  2. jjs

    Jos. Burke Guest

    Alrighty I'm sure this is redundant but here goes and please advise!!
    I'm having a terrible time clearing that pinkish halide or ? coating from
    my Kodak films from 120 Roll (Tmax and Tri-X) as well as my sheet film of
    the same. I'm processing in a Jobo and am using both a 5 minute presoak as
    well as a long 5 minute fixing. Also a long washing still doesn't clear it
    properly!! Still there in most cases and it seems TriX is the hardest to
    clear (I haven't managed to clear it yet!).
    Advice please!
    What am I missing or doing wrong!
    Sure makes Ilford films (I use both Ilford and the Yellow Giant labels) look
    good in regards to processing!!
    Jos. Burke
    Jos. Burke, Feb 6, 2005
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  3. jjs

    Glenn Booth Guest

    You didn't say what kind of fix you're using. Even in rapid fix you
    should try fixing 7 - 10 minutes. I experienced the same problem and
    found that simply fixing longer would remove the pink.

    glenn booth
    Glenn Booth, Feb 6, 2005
  4. jjs

    Jos. Burke Guest

    To continue I also use Perma Wash after the fact and my water here in KY is
    rather hard ( I don't soften)---It's pumped straight out of the Ohio River,
    critters and all, belly-up and living!! Adds to the flavor as well as the
    bouquet!!!! We get a little something extra in every glass!!
    J Burke
    Jos. Burke, Feb 6, 2005
  5. Two suggestions: 1)try using either distilled or softened water (add
    about 1/2 tsp. of Calgon crystals to your water), and 2)try an
    extra-strength mixture of Perma-Wash and give it about double the
    recommended time in the Perma Wash.

    Three. . .three suggestions (and a fanatical obedience to the Pope),
    oops, sorry, wrong sketch. Anyway, check the pH of your processes. The
    pink comes out better at higher pH. So you might want to avoid using
    hardener in your fixer and/or switch to an alkaline fixer. Also, make
    sure your developer is at least pH 9.
    LR Kalajainen, Feb 6, 2005
  6. jjs

    jjs Guest

    Normal fixing times without hardener.
    jjs, Feb 6, 2005
  7. jjs

    Mike King Guest

    No mention of type of fixer, are you using Rapid Fix and at what dilution?
    Are you using it one shot or reusing your fixer. Will the film clear if you
    refix in fresh fixer?
    Mike King, Feb 7, 2005
  8. jjs

    dan.c.quinn Guest

    Certain impurities may cause precipitation of the silver-thiosulfate
    complex in the emulsion. Sodium and ammonium silver-thiosulfate
    complexes are soluble and wash out. That pink hue is a sign
    of incomplete wash out.

    I've very hard water so use only distilled water.
    dan.c.quinn, Feb 7, 2005
  9. jjs

    jjs Guest

    Hard water, if it is largely iron, is a very good for archival washing. Pure
    water hardly washes at all. Wash in hard, rinse and photo-flow in pure and
    be happy.
    jjs, Feb 8, 2005
  10. jjs

    dan.c.quinn Guest

    The OP's water must not be "largely iron" He ends up with
    pinkish emulsions. I'll see if my local supermarket has hard
    water by the gallon. Dan
    dan.c.quinn, Feb 8, 2005
  11. jjs

    Luka Gojceta Guest

    minute (in rapid fix FF2), and washed it in PhotoFlo. The pink coating was
    Luka Gojceta, Feb 8, 2005
  12. The pink comes out much more easily if the hypo-clear and final wash are
    done at 75 degrees. 'Pink Problems' are normally a winter affair.
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Feb 9, 2005
  13. jjs

    Javi L Guest

    You suggest the hole developping process must take place at 75 degrees? Or
    do you mean the washing step? In this last case wont difference between bath
    temperatures harm the film?
    Javi L, Feb 10, 2005
  14. jjs

    bj Guest

    Watch out about 75 degree wash may reticulate film. (Tmax is a thinner
    emulsion than tri-x and will take a greater temperture change but still
    be carefull) Kodak changed Tmax from other films in that the emulsion
    color is an additive to the base side of the negative to check for
    total film fix. Lengthen your fix time to 10 mins, wash, hypo, wash
    photo flo. This will take care of it. I to had this problem when tmax
    first came out and change all film fixing to 10 mins to compensate for
    bj, Feb 10, 2005
  15. Hypo clear and wash. Though you can do the whole shebang at 75. I
    I keep the thermostat at 64 in the winter and I process at room
    temperature. In the summer ~75 is about average.
    Nicholas O. Lindan, Feb 10, 2005
  16. jjs

    Frank Pittel Guest

    : Watch out about 75 degree wash may reticulate film. (Tmax is a thinner
    : emulsion than tri-x and will take a greater temperture change but still
    : be carefull) Kodak changed Tmax from other films in that the emulsion
    : color is an additive to the base side of the negative to check for
    : total film fix. Lengthen your fix time to 10 mins, wash, hypo, wash
    : photo flo. This will take care of it. I to had this problem when tmax
    : first came out and change all film fixing to 10 mins to compensate for
    : it.

    I've managed to abuse Tmax with temprature changes and have never had an
    issue with reticulation. I do know that I process Tmax at 75 degrees.


    Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
    Frank Pittel, Feb 10, 2005
  17. jjs

    dan.c.quinn Guest

    I use only enough A. Thio. concentrate as will completly clear one
    unexposed roll of film. So much silver, so much fixer. Try 20ml of
    concentrate in whatever solution volume needed. The greater the
    volume the better. Archival results are more nearly approached.
    Give constant agitation and check in dim light after four
    minutes. No pink in my Pan F+ and it can be. Dan
    dan.c.quinn, Feb 10, 2005
  18. Its the emulsion that reticulates. T-Max emulsions are
    very hard. They are similar to the emulsions of color films
    which will withstand 100F processing. Some other films are
    not so hardended. Tri-X, at least befor production was
    moved, was easier to reticulate than most other films but it
    still took an effort. The current stuff may be harder.
    Richard Knoppow, Mar 5, 2005
  19. I've read through this rather long thread and still am
    not sure of what fixer you are using. Rapid fixer at film
    strength should fix out Tri-X and T-Max in five minutes
    unless its very exhausted. Make sure you agitate the film
    frequently while its fixing.
    The easiest way to test the fixer is to fix out a scrap
    of undeveloped film. Soak the film in water for 2 or 3
    minutes to swell the gelatin and then fix it in a sample of
    the fixing bath. In film strength rapid fixer it should
    become visually clear in about 2 minutes. It should be fixed
    for 2 to 3 times the clearing time. If the clearing time is
    excessive replace the fixer. The reason for the presoak is
    that wet film fixes at a different rate from dry film.
    While rapid fixer has a much greater capacity than sodium
    thiosulfate fixer I still suggest the use of two successive
    fixing baths. This extends the life of the fixer
    considerably and insures complete fixing. Note that there
    are still insoluble halide or reaction products in the
    emulsion even after it have become visually clear, extending
    the fixing time by a factor of 2 to 3 times insures that
    this material has been reacted into a water soluble form
    which will come out in the fixer or wash.
    There are two things that result in a color stain on the
    film: one is unfixed halide, the other is residual
    sensitizing dye. They look a bit different. Unfixed halide
    is turbid, the dye is not. Turbidity (cloudiness) requires
    refixing in fresh fixer to get rid of. The sensitizing dye
    in T-Max (and maybe Tri-X also) is a sort of pinkish violet
    but it is clear. This dye seems to be very persistent and
    bonds to something in the emulsion. While Kodak suggests its
    from inadequate fixing it seem to persist even when fixing
    is carried out well beyond the point of of normal fixing
    times. The dye can be gotten rid of by a normal treatment in
    a sulfite wash aid such as Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent. KHCA
    has several properties that break the chemical bond between
    fixer, alum hardener, fixer reaction products, and the
    residual dye with the gelatin of the emulsion and the image
    silver. To some extent it will compensate for partially
    exhausted fixer. With T-Max films the sensitizing dye comes
    completely out in a normal 2 to 3 minute treatment in the
    wash aid.
    I know from Kodak's published research paper that KHCA
    works. I don't know about other wash aides. Kodak's is
    designed to produce minimum swelling of the emulsion and to
    adjust the pH to a point where washing is rapid but
    hardening from alum hardener is not destroyed as it is by a
    high pH bath in sodium carbonate or some other alkali. It
    also has an ion exchange property not shared by plain alkali
    baths. It is this property which is primarily for the very
    great acceleration of washing.
    I don't use much Tri-X but use a lot of T-Max. I get
    completely clear negatives after using wash aid even when
    fixing in sodium thiosulfate fixer.

    Write back and let me know what you find.
    Richard Knoppow, Mar 5, 2005
  20. jjs

    dan.c.quinn Guest

    Working strengh fixers have suggested maximum silver
    content levels per unit volume of fixer. The levels for
    archival purposes are low. Any fix, sodium or ammonium may
    exceed those levels long before it's capacity for complexing silver is
    reached. In practice A. Thio. has no more capacity
    than S. Thio. That is even more true when iodide is present
    as the ammonium ion's affinity for silver in the presence
    of iodide is near zero. That near zero affinity is the
    reason for longer fix times with iodided emulsion.
    The only reason for FILM STRENGTH fixer, if I read Ilford correctly,
    is the high 8 - 10 grams of silver per liter they suggest for
    commercial purposes. Any one processing at or
    near the much lower archival silver levels using 'film'
    strength is just throwing fixer down the drain.
    There are two capacities. One is the chemistry's ability
    to complex silver and the other is the safe silver level per
    unit volume. Save for very dilute fixers such as I use the chemistry's
    capacity is not usually a matter of concern. Dan
    dan.c.quinn, Mar 6, 2005
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