Hi Speed sync vs Leaf shutter sync at any speed.

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Patrick L., Nov 16, 2003.

  1. Patrick L.

    Chris Brown Guest

    That's pretty decent.

    And, of course, on many of these cameras you can still use the flash above
    the sync speed - Canon's flash system has it's "high speed" mode where it
    strobes the flash to achieve even flash exposure even though the shutter is
    never fully open. That does dramatically reduce the effective illumination
    power of the flash though.
     
    Chris Brown, Jan 9, 2005
    #21
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  2. Patrick L.

    Zico Guest


    Ta. I want to photograph my dog leaping over a cattle grid, this
    she will do to order (clever girl), so a fast shutter speed,
    1/500 +, and flash fill is really what I'm after. Very hit & miss
    with a shallow DOF, so there would be much wastage using film.
    Digital would seem to be ideal, but this shutter lag thing won't
    help. I haven't used a camera with predictive focus , don't
    know if this would help anyway ? Its obviously crucial the
    eyes are in focus of course.

    Z.
     
    Zico, Jan 9, 2005
    #22
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  3. Patrick L.

    Chris Brown Guest

    As has already been said, digital SLRs are no different from 35mm SLRs in
    terms of flash sync and shutter speed. If you can do it with a 35mm SLR, you
    can do it with a DSLR.

    If you want to minimise shutter lag, it's not the "digital" bit that's your
    problem, it's the "SLR" bit. It takes time to get the mirror out of the way.
    You can now buy a digital rangfinder, however, and there will probably be
    more along in the next year or two.

    As for flash sync, if you just want a bit of fill flash, Canon's high speed
    sync technology will probably work just fine. Using my 10D and Speedlight
    420, I can take flash pics at 1/4000, even though the flash sync speed is
    nominally only 1/200.
     
    Chris Brown, Jan 9, 2005
    #23
  4. Patrick L.

    McLeod Guest

    The Nikon D70 has 1/500th of a second flash sync, as does the D1x.
    There is no shutter lag in DSLR's. Only point and shoot digitals or
    EVF digitals experience shutter lag.
     
    McLeod, Jan 9, 2005
    #24
  5. Patrick L.

    Alan Browne- Guest

    All things being relative, it depends on what you define as shutter lag.
    On the order of 40 - 60 ms for most ¨good¨ slr´s (film or digital).
    The pelicule EOS-1n (RS) had a shutter lag on the order of 10ms (6?),
    similar to rangefinders like the M6.

    Higher end SLR´s (F5, EOS-1v, Maxxum 9) have flash synch at 1/250-1/300
    which is damned decent. Most leaf shutters go to 1/500 and some to 1/1000.

    High speed synch gets you to _exposures_ of 1/8,000 (even 1/12,000 on my
    Maxxum 9), but then the amount of flash exposure with a high end flash
    drops to the less than GN 10 level.

    Cheers,
    Alan.
     
    Alan Browne-, Jan 10, 2005
    #25
  6. Patrick L.

    Zico Guest

    Hmmm , that's worth looking at. So there's no delay with the
    autofocus searching , can it be turned off ? I've only used
    autofocus on compacts. I still use manual SLR's as a rule.

    Z.
     
    Zico, Jan 10, 2005
    #26
  7. Patrick L.

    Owamanga Guest

    Autofocus delay and shutter-lag are separate things. Shutter-lag is
    measured once any autofocusing has been achieved. Yes, it can be
    switched off.

    Having said that, the D70 focuses much faster than the N80 can (the
    albeit cheaper, prosumer film equivalent) - just my opinion, I don't
    have real data on this.

    The D70 has a hybrid shutter. It's purely mechanical up to 1/250th and
    then electronic after that (which the mechanical shutter still opening
    at 1/250th). Technically therefore it should be able to flash-sync
    much faster than 1/500th, but for commercial or reliability reasons,
    Nikon have crippled it at 1/500th. Firmware hacks may fix this later
    in the year.

    D70's shutter lag is less than 1/10th sec, and actually slightly
    faster than the N80. You won't find any meaningful data on focusing
    speeds because it depends on lighting conditions, subject, movement,
    the lens being used etc. In many situations, it'll beat your manual
    focus speed. I switch to manual about 10% of the time.
     
    Owamanga, Jan 10, 2005
    #27
  8. Patrick L.

    Chris Brown Guest

    Any of the digital SLRs can have autofocus turned off.

    Be warned though - the screens tend to be poor for manual focusing at best.
     
    Chris Brown, Jan 10, 2005
    #28
  9. Patrick L.

    Owamanga Guest

    That's what the little green 'You've got focus' light is for in the
    viewfinder.

    :p
     
    Owamanga, Jan 10, 2005
    #29
  10. Patrick L.

    Zico Guest

    'Manual focus speed' ?! Christ no, I prefocus and wait. :)
     
    Zico, Jan 10, 2005
    #30
  11. Patrick L.

    Owamanga Guest

    Okay, It'll prefocus faster than you, so you can do more waiting, and
    maybe not miss that shot that happened in the moment you were
    twiddling the lens.

    :)

    I use manual focus for:
    Night photography.
    Birds in flight / aircraft in flight (I can track-focus better than
    AF can).
    Rapid candids where the subject is often not located conveniently
    under the currently selected AF area.
     
    Owamanga, Jan 10, 2005
    #31
  12. Patrick L.

    Matt Clara Guest

    Interestingly enough, I'm shooting portraits of some state department
    directors tomorrow and on thursday as well. I'm using a Nikon D70 with
    Alien Bee 800's (two of them) using umbrella reflectors. I set up this
    afternoon so I'll be ready to roll in the morning. It's a white room with
    white ceiling, so there's a lot of light bounce, and in order to get the
    B800s under control (using a wide-open aperture) I had to turn them down so
    far that the modeling lights were useless as they are putting out so little
    illumination. I'm not turning on the overhead lights (flourescent), so I
    need the modelling lamps, and on a lark, I pushed the shutter speed to 5000.
    That image looked better than the rest (excepting those shot at f22), so I
    then went to 6400, and those shots are spot on. So either I'm getting sync
    speeds up to 6400, or I don't know what...
     
    Matt Clara, Jan 11, 2005
    #32
  13. Patrick L.

    Owamanga Guest

    I think you are definitely getting sync speeds that high. It's only
    the iTTL system that will refuse to sync faster than 1/500th. People
    have been able to fool the shoe-mount by sticking little bits of
    electrical tape over some of the connectors and can get an SB-800 or
    SB-600 to sync at 1/8000th. Your Alien Bee's don't support iTTL, so
    the D70 happily fires them.

    I assume these are wired, rather than slave triggered by the on-board
    flash - if not, my conclusions are flawed - unless manual mode flash
    doesn't have this limitation either (which it shouldn't) I think I
    need to play some more...
     
    Owamanga, Jan 12, 2005
    #33
  14. Patrick L.

    Matt Clara Guest

    Wired via an AS-15. http://www.adorama.com/NKAS15.html
     
    Matt Clara, Jan 12, 2005
    #34
  15. Patrick L.

    Matt Clara Guest

    Every single shot (200+, most in RAW mode) has very obvious moire patterns.
    Because most of them will be used at less than 2" x 2" at 300dpi, this isn't
    a problem. But there'll be no 8x10's made from this two days of work. The
    shots at 1/8000 are worse than those at 1/6400. I'm not happy with this at
    all. Having conducted a brief search, I see that one fellow claims to have
    this problem when shooting the tops of tall buildings. One may surmise then
    that the high shutter speeds have something to do with it.
     
    Matt Clara, Jan 13, 2005
    #35
  16. Patrick L.

    Owamanga Guest

    Your subject has a lot to do with it. Particularly certain fabrics -
    you must avoid anything that looks remotely like fly-screen. Indeed,
    distant rooftops (shingles/tiles) etc will generate the effect.

    Having said that, I've shot a few thousand images (most under 1/2000th
    I would guess) and moire is visible in only about 10 of them. Man-made
    stuff generates moire, nature tends not to.

    Part of the learning curve with new equipment is to identify it's
    weaknesses be aware of them and work around them. Any camera using
    BAYER filters will produce this effect under the right conditions, the
    trick is to avoid those conditions.

    You are on the latest firmware aren't you? I seem to remember
    something was going wrong with high-speed shots (don't remember it
    being moire though) that was fixed with the x.2 release (they are now
    at x.3)

    Damn bad luck, anyway.
     
    Owamanga, Jan 13, 2005
    #36
  17. Patrick L.

    Matt Clara Guest


    It appears what I'm seeing is a "grid" problem, as described by Thomas Hogan
    on his page reviewing the D70, http://www.bythom.com/D70REVIEW.HTM#autofocus
    (scroll down just a bit to Other Performance Issues).

    A photoshop view of 66% reveals the grid problem:
    http://www.michigan.gov/images/D70gridprob_66prcnt_113953_7.jpg

    by 100% it isn't terrible, but still present.
    http://www.michigan.gov/images/D70gridprob_100prcnt_113954_7.jpg

    300% reveals the exact nature of the beast:
    http://www.michigan.gov/images/D70gridprob_300prcnt_113955_7.jpg

    Apparently it is a high shutter speed issue. "As already noted, sometimes
    the D70 produces a grid-like artifact in constant tone areas. If in-camera
    sharpening is ON and you're using JPEG and Normal to High contrast settings,
    it may become visible in your shots. This, too, appears to be a high shutter
    speed problem." However, I saw it in all my shots, both RAW and JPEG, and
    contrast was pretty well controlled, too. Still it's a grid, and I'm not
    happy that the D70 manual didn't even warn me about it...
     
    Matt Clara, Jan 14, 2005
    #37
  18. Patrick L.

    Owamanga Guest

    Wow, I've heard about the problem, but never seen it that bad before.
    Personally, my shutter speeds aren't usually that high and I always
    shoot RAW with no sharpening. I'll have to do some tests to try and
    force it.

    This site used 1/8000th but had to do significant unsharp mask to make
    the grid visible:
    http://www.naturfotograf.com/D70_rev03.html

    Your pictures look much worse.

    You did shoot RAW, yes? and during import, turned off any sharpening?

    If not, the way to avoid this in future may be to use RAW, then test
    various sharpening filters that may or may not be able to sharpen
    without bringing out the grid. It would be nice to be able to shoot at
    above 1/1000 without worrying about this issue.

    This guy wrote a sharpening filter specifically modified for the D70

    The only samples I can find are on the D100 version
    http://www.fredmiranda.com/D100_D1xCS/

    And here is the details of the D70 version (but missing samples):
    http://www.fredmiranda.com/D70CSpro
     
    Owamanga, Jan 14, 2005
    #38
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