How am I going to be able to use my VHS recorders when digital is forced on us?

Discussion in 'Video Cameras' started by Alan Holmes, Jun 9, 2005.

  1. Alan Holmes

    Ad C Guest

    You are correct, it do not matter how many back ups you got, at the end
    of the day it is data that can be corrupted.
    Ad C, Jun 27, 2005
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  2. Alan Holmes

    Ad C Guest

    Oh right, so we are not going to allow DRM to happen.
    Just try telling Microcrap that, or what about real networks, or any of
    the other big record labels, like Sony.

    DRM is now on almost everything you download from the net, if you copy
    your own music, using some software, if you are not careful, they get
    encypted with DRM as well.

    My mini disk player software will not allow me to record a song to disk
    more than three times, unless I transfer the song back to the computer.
    Ok, so I got a patch that gets around it, but it is still stupid.

    digital may be better sound, picture, or what ever is stored on it (well
    to some people it is better but it is still a pain in the neck and it
    will be the down full of anything staying around for future generations.
    Ad C, Jun 27, 2005
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  3. Alan Holmes

    Ad C Guest

    Maybe they are better off, there are still recordings that work that are
    on was cylinders.
    Ad C, Jun 27, 2005
  4. Alan Holmes

    Ad C Guest

    There are people around who do not back things up and yes they do store
    their family photos on one computer or on one hard drive.

    Any photo I have taken and I want to keep I will get it printed out by
    Jessops. apart from putting the photo though a shredder that is the most
    reliable way of keeping them.
    Ad C, Jun 27, 2005
  5. Alan Holmes

    Tony Morgan Guest

    Moses used stone tablets - but they still got lost :)
    We do what we can, but at the end of the day (or millennium), retention
    of data depends on providence.
    Tony Morgan, Jun 27, 2005
  6. Alan Holmes

    Ad C Guest

    Well after all those years, what do you expect, not that I think he
    existed anyway.

    so much for improvement
    Ad C, Jun 27, 2005
  7. Alan Holmes

    Max Demian Guest

    Do you remember the film that shows him coming down the mountain with
    *three* tablets talking about the 15 commandments and then he drops one?

    Any ideas as to what the other five commandments were?
    Max Demian, Jun 27, 2005
  8. Alan Holmes

    Tony Morgan Guest

    In message <>, Roderick
    Surely that's only Usenet (NNTP), and that's distributed for reasons
    other than data integrity. Although HTTP and FTP are sometimes mirrored
    - they are also mirrored for an entirely different reason than for data

    The only application I can think of where mirroring is used for data
    integrity is on Intranets - and then there are invariably problems
    associated with both synchronisation and traffic.
    Tony Morgan, Jun 28, 2005
  9. Alan Holmes

    Ian Guest

    11. Thou shalt not present thyself as God's representative.

    12. Thou shalt not present thyself as a Messiah.

    13. Thou shalt not represent thyself as the son of God.

    14. Thou shalt not issue commandments.

    15. Thou shalt fear those that do all of the above..
    Ian, Jun 28, 2005
  10. Alan Holmes

    G Hardy Guest

    Thou shalt make regular backups

    Thou shalt store one offsite

    Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's backup

    Thou shalt hurry up and invent digital bloody cameras

    Thou shalt not waste time in the middle of the night inventing pointless
    G Hardy, Jun 28, 2005
  11. Alan Holmes

    Nobody Here Guest

    Nobody Here, Jun 28, 2005
  12. Alan Holmes

    :::Jerry:::: Guest

    Yes, that's what backups are. For example, think of how information is
    stored on the internet - copies of important stuff are stored in
    different locations on different equipment of different ages, so the
    probability of all copies of the same thing being lost simultaneously is
    negligibly small.

    Preserving anything requires suitable management of course. Just as the
    preservation of physical objects requires controlled physical
    conditions, the preservation of electronic data requires controlled
    electronic conditions. Which information will be given the full
    treatment will depend on how valuable society considers it to be, so
    just as the physical embodiment of your family photos may not get the
    same resources applied to their preservation as the Mona Lisa, not
    everything will end up saved on multiple servers, just the stuff that
    lots of people are interested in keeping. If something is of sufficient
    interest, there is no reason why digital copies of it could not last
    longer than the Dead Sea scrolls.

    Personally (considering what we are talking about) you are being a
    pedantic w*nker here, we are talking about non critical 'documents'
    here - not someone's Will for example.

    No one is going to back up their music or movie collection every day,
    week, month or what ever, there are various proven archive storage
    methods, both analogue and digital (that have been proven over many
    years), ATM optical is not one of them, quite the opposite in fact.
    :::Jerry::::, Jun 28, 2005
  13. Alan Holmes

    Tony Morgan Guest

    The plural of media (and also of data) was established in the days of
    punched cards. In those days, you *had* always to have multiple punched
    cards, so, since any item of data on media was always "plural" in the
    sense of multiple cards, data and media were the same words in both
    singular and plural.
    Tony Morgan, Jun 28, 2005
  14. Alan Holmes

    Tony Morgan Guest

    True to an extent. But if any copy is corrupted, that corrupted data
    will be broadcast throughout the NNTP server newsfeeds. This, BTW, is
    why the RAR/PAR system evolved and is universally used throughout NNTP
    systems to recover damaged or missing blocks of data from binaries.
    I suspect that you don't understand the notion of synchronising
    databases. What you say is correct, but your photograph is a data item -
    not an element of a database.
    Consider (say) a database of jobs/clients/enquiries of (say) Blue Arrow.
    There are multiple records, mirrored across several servers, constantly
    being accessed and modified by thousands of clients (in the
    client/server context). It is not an insignificant task to ensure that
    each access returns the latest version of a particular record - if your
    simplistic view were valid. The same applies if a data record is
    corrupted or lost.

    Taking your suggestion that the Internet is constantly archived, the
    same (above) would be true of HTTP, since a page can (and often does)
    consist of several files. Often parts of an HTTP page are dynamic -
    mining elements from multiple databases to serve a HTTP page (ever used
    Ebay's 'My Ebay'?).
    For static data - yes. But as soon as you gave the Internet as an
    example, your proposition became untrue, since you are dealing with
    dynamic (aka constantly changing) data.
    You've actually got it the wrong way round. If you are indeed
    considering the concept of archiving the "original" static item then you
    can indeed assure data integrity by multiple copies.
    Tony Morgan, Jun 28, 2005
  15. Alan Holmes

    Ad C Guest

    I think he is.
    Ad C, Jun 28, 2005
  16. Alan Holmes

    Ad C Guest

    I never watched it.
    No idea.
    Ad C, Jun 28, 2005
  17. Alan Holmes

    Paul Bird Guest

    He replied, at last!

    The main problem is the quality of the codec to convert to a format suitable
    for DVD. I know of many people who do this, even Anglia do it, but all use
    software codec's and this is the down fall. Some of the more expensive
    codecs work quite well, but a hardware codec is best (costs lots!). Have a
    and see how you get on, the codec in DVD architect is average but does not
    noisy source pictures which is exactly what you get from domestic mini DV!

    The sony camera which writes straight to DVD, I think is not a good way to
    because the maximum bit rate for a DVD is 10Mbit, and this will define the
    source quality as rather low. To edit this will mean converting to 25Mbit if
    using Vegas Video, then back to 10Mbit which will further reduce quality.

    Mini DV is 25Mbit, a rate used for broadcast now (broadcast used to be
    144Mbit!) and gives good domestic quality. also there are many edit packages
    that use native DV data (i.e. 25Mbit).

    The point here is, that if the material is to be edited, it is best to start
    a higher bit rate at source, than the destination bit rate. When creating
    fades, the mathematics used greatly benefits from having a good source
    resolution, as, inevitably, data gets lost as the two scenes merge.


    Paul Bird, Aug 6, 2005
  18. Alan Holmes

    Tony Morgan Guest

    And it's a real hoot :)
    So that is why camcorders with DV-in cost "lots" since they use hardware
    codecs. I think not :)
    Wrong ! DVD Architect does NOT employ a codec. Vegas does, and allows
    you to use any codec you like. Vegas happens to come with the
    MainConcept MPEG-2 codec for video, and the Dolby Digital AC-3 codec for
    sound. The resulting files are the ones used in DVD Architect.
    Mbit what? Per mile? Per yard? Per minute? The last time I looked,
    miniDV is 3.4Mb/sec.
    AFAIK there is no such thing as "native DV".
    But VHS doesn't have a bit rate ! It is analogue :)
    Again this shows a lack of basic understanding. Cross fades are achieved
    (on the outgoing fade) by lowering the gamma, and on the incoming fade
    by increasing the gamma.
    I'm sorry Paul, but this is an absolute load of twaddle.

    The only thing he is correct about is the suggestion to use as high a
    resolution at source as possible, but since the source is VHS analogue,
    you can only start with about 240 lines of resolution so his observation
    has no significance in this context.

    Though not relevant in the context of the question, MiniDV will provide
    a source of about 510 lines of resolution. But when rendered
    (transcoded) to MPEG-2 you'll get about 420 lines of resolution.
    Tony Morgan, Aug 7, 2005
  19. Alan Holmes

    :::Jerry:::: Guest

    Sounds like he is talking about DVPro, not MiniDV. Which would
    follow, as IIRC, his information is coming from (so he says) a
    'broadcast engineer'.
    :::Jerry::::, Aug 7, 2005
  20. Alan Holmes

    Tony Morgan Guest

    If he was what he claims to be, I would think that he would know the
    difference between DVPro and miniDV. Similarly, I wouldn't have expected
    him to get confused between analogue and digital.

    Still, I'm relieved that he doesn't claim to be a brain surgeon :)
    Tony Morgan, Aug 7, 2005
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