how much does sodium sulfite accelerate developing times?

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by mmmmark, Oct 24, 2005.

  1. mmmmark

    mmmmark Guest

    I'm going to use sodium sulfite for the first time soon and, if I
    understand correctly, sodium sulfite accelerates developing. So I'm
    curious to know how much I should shorten my developing time in
    relation to this?
    I have a 5% solution of it mixed up and I plan to use Rodinal at 1:50
    for a roll of APX 100. The packaged literature recommends doing it at
    20 degrees for 17 minutes, so with the SS what would it then be,
    approximately?
     
    mmmmark, Oct 24, 2005
    #1
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  2. I have never heard of doing this to accelerate development. If you dissolve
    paramethylaminosulfate in water, it will pretty much not develop film unless
    you add quite a bit of sodium sulphite. And while you could develop film in
    this, current day films come out a bit mushy because all that sulphite
    dissolves the edges of the silver grains. This gives "finer grain" but at
    the expense of sharpness. The main reason for using sulphite ion in
    developper mixtures is to retard oxidation of the developper.
    No way to know. You would have to test it in advance. While I do not like
    Rodinal, that is a matter of personal taste, so YMMV.

    If I wanted to speed up Rodinal 1:50, I would try 1:25 or something. If you
    do not mind grain (and you probably don't or you would not be using Rodinal
    in the first place), you could use sodium hydroxide solution. But what's
    your hurry?
     
    Jean-David Beyer, Oct 25, 2005
    #2
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  3. mmmmark

    mmmmark Guest

    Thanks for your response. I should have been a bit clearer, perhaps. I
    seem to have given the impression that I'm trying to use this solution
    to speed up developing times, when I should have been more specific in
    saying that I'm actually doing it for its effects on the film grain.
    The speeding up of the developing is not something I'm going for at
    all, it's just a byproduct I want to be in control of. Hell, I'm not
    even really sure if it does in fact speed it up to any significant
    degree, thats kind of what this post is about.

    But what is sodium hydroxide? What affects does it have? I'm not
    familiar with it
     
    mmmmark, Oct 25, 2005
    #3
  4. mmmmark

    Rod Smith Guest

    You probably are familiar with sodium hydroxide. It's also known as "lye"
    and is sold as a drain cleaner, as well as being used in various
    industrial applications. In photography, it's an activator for many
    developing agents and is an ingredient in some developer solutions.
    Rodinal contains a chemically similar substance, potassium hydroxide. I'm
    guessing that adding a bit of sodium hydroxide to Rodinal would accelerate
    its action, hence Jean-David Beyer's mentioning it, but I don't know that
    for a fact.

    You might be interested in reading a bit of the basic principles of
    developer design. Anchell's _The Darkroom Cookbook_ has this information.
    A good Web page with basic information is:

    http://www.jackspcs.com/chemnote.htm

    Another approach to taming the grain with Rodinal is to add ascorbic acid
    (aka vitamin C). This approach is described here:

    http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

    Scroll down to the sidebar entitled "Begone, Fog!" The same page has
    information on mixing Rodinal with XTOL and a mix-it-yourself formula
    that's something of a cross between Rodinal and XTOL. I've not tried any
    of these things, though, so I can't comment on their effectiveness; I just
    happened to know the page exists, and so thought I'd share the reference.
     
    Rod Smith, Oct 25, 2005
    #4
  5. mmmmark

    UC Guest

    Do not add sulphite to Rodinal. It's stupid. The developer is
    formulated to work with plain water.
     
    UC, Oct 25, 2005
    #5
  6. mmmmark

    Mike King Guest

    Bill Pierce (a man for which I have a great deal of respect) used to use a
    sulfite solution to moderate the graininess of Rodinal with high speed films
    like Tri-X, I believe Pat Gainer (another chap for which I have much
    respect) has also done some research on this. Neither one of them uses the
    word stupid when replying to honest questions.
     
    Mike King, Oct 25, 2005
    #6
  7. mmmmark

    UC Guest

    Adding sulphite to Rodinal is like putting pure oxygen in your tires.
    Pointless and even counter-productive. Sulphite's in D-76 action is
    two-fold:

    1) To preserve the metol against oxidation
    2) To reduce the graininess by dissolving a bit of the grain edges.

    To the best of my knowledge, the sulphite's solvent effect occuirs only
    at certain concentrations and at a certain ph, and there is no reason
    to believe that Rodinal's active ingredient and ph are suitable for
    sulphite to act in the same way in a Rodinal solution as it does in
    D-76.

    The alkali is different
    The developing agent is different
    The ph is different
    The concentration is different

    If you want a fine-grain developer, don't use Rodinal at all. There is
    no point whaetsoever to adding sulphite to Rodinal.
     
    UC, Oct 25, 2005
    #7
  8. My experiments some years ago comparing Rodinal with sulfite and
    Rodinal with ascorbate against plain Rodinal told me that with
    ascorbate, the grain is finer than plain Rodinal and the resolution is
    better than either of the others. Development time in Rodinal 1+50+ 4
    grams/l of sodium ascorbate is about the same as for Rodinal 1+25. These
    comparisons were published in Photo Techniques in the article "Salt to
    Taste" which also showed some results of adding sodium chloride to D-23.
     
    PATRICK GAINER, Oct 26, 2005
    #8
  9. mmmmark

    nailer Guest

    Rodinal is powered by potassium hydroxide, any additional sulfite is
    irrelevant as the speed is concerned.



    On 25 Oct 2005 09:35:09 -0700, "UC" <>
    wrote:

    <>Do not add sulphite to Rodinal. It's stupid. The developer is
    <>formulated to work with plain water.
    <>
    <>
    <> wrote:
    <>> I'm going to use sodium sulfite for the first time soon and, if I
    <>> understand correctly, sodium sulfite accelerates developing. So
    I'm
    <>> curious to know how much I should shorten my developing time in
    <>> relation to this?
    <>> I have a 5% solution of it mixed up and I plan to use Rodinal at
    1:50
    <>> for a roll of APX 100. The packaged literature recommends doing it
    at
    <>> 20 degrees for 17 minutes, so with the SS what would it then be,
    <>> approximately?
     
    nailer, Oct 26, 2005
    #9
  10. mmmmark

    nailer Guest

    none of gentlemen signs with UC ;-{)



    On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:37:56 -0500, "Mike King"

    <>Bill Pierce (a man for which I have a great deal of respect) used to
    use a
    <>sulfite solution to moderate the graininess of Rodinal with high
    speed films
    <>like Tri-X, I believe Pat Gainer (another chap for which I have much
    <>respect) has also done some research on this. Neither one of them
    uses the
    <>word stupid when replying to honest questions.
    <>
    <><>> Do not add sulphite to Rodinal. It's stupid. The developer is
    <>> formulated to work with plain water.
    <>>
    <>>
    <>> wrote:
    <>> > I'm going to use sodium sulfite for the first time soon and, if
    I
    <>> > understand correctly, sodium sulfite accelerates developing. So
    I'm
    <>> > curious to know how much I should shorten my developing time in
    <>> > relation to this?
    <>> > I have a 5% solution of it mixed up and I plan to use Rodinal at
    1:50
    <>> > for a roll of APX 100. The packaged literature recommends doing
    it at
    <>> > 20 degrees for 17 minutes, so with the SS what would it then
    be,
    <>> > approximately?
    <>>
    <>
     
    nailer, Oct 26, 2005
    #10
  11. mmmmark

    nailer Guest

    a bit of knowledge is worse than none at all.

    the originator asked if sulfite would increase speed. he/she hasn't
    asked about effect on grain.

    Rodinal already has sulfite, adding more would have only a minor
    effect.

    As far as I know, NITROGEN is used by some to fill tyres, not oxygen.
    Because they try to avoid oxygen. Someone heard bells ringing, but
    did not know in which church.

    otherwise yet again wasted bandwidth from someone with loud mouth and
    insufficient knowledge.




    <>UC wrote:
    <>
    <>>Adding sulphite to Rodinal is like putting pure oxygen in your
    tires.
    <>>Pointless and even counter-productive. Sulphite's in D-76 action is
    <>>two-fold:
    <>>
    <>>1) To preserve the metol against oxidation
    <>>2) To reduce the graininess by dissolving a bit of the grain edges.
    <>>
    <>>To the best of my knowledge, the sulphite's solvent effect occuirs
    only
    <>>at certain concentrations and at a certain ph, and there is no
    reason
    <>>to believe that Rodinal's active ingredient and ph are suitable for
    <>>sulphite to act in the same way in a Rodinal solution as it does in
    <>>D-76.
    <>>
    <>>The alkali is different
    <>>The developing agent is different
    <>>The ph is different
    <>>The concentration is different
    <>>
    <>>If you want a fine-grain developer, don't use Rodinal at all. There
    is
    <>>no point whaetsoever to adding sulphite to Rodinal.
    <>>
    <>>
    <>>Mike King wrote:
    <>>
    <>>
    <>>>Bill Pierce (a man for which I have a great deal of respect) used
    to use a
    <>>>sulfite solution to moderate the graininess of Rodinal with high
    speed films
    <>>>like Tri-X, I believe Pat Gainer (another chap for which I have
    much
    <>>>respect) has also done some research on this. Neither one of them
    uses the
    <>>>word stupid when replying to honest questions.
    <>>>
    <>>><>>>
    <>>>
    <>>>>Do not add sulphite to Rodinal. It's stupid. The developer is
    <>>>>formulated to work with plain water.
    <>>>>
    <>>>>
    <>>>> wrote:
    <>>>>
    <>>>>
    <>>>>>I'm going to use sodium sulfite for the first time soon and, if
    I
    <>>>>>understand correctly, sodium sulfite accelerates developing. So
    I'm
    <>>>>>curious to know how much I should shorten my developing time in
    <>>>>>relation to this1?
    <>>>>>I have a 5% solution of it mixed up and I plan to use Rodinal at
    1:50
    <>>>>>for a roll of APX 100. The packaged literature recommends doing
    it at
    <>>>>>20 degrees for 17 minutes, so with the SS what would it then
    be,
    <>>>>>approximately?
    <>>>>>
    <>>>>>
    <>>
    <>>
    <>>
    <>My experiments some years ago comparing Rodinal with sulfite and
    <>Rodinal with ascorbate against plain Rodinal told me that with
    <>ascorbate, the grain is finer than plain Rodinal and the resolution
    is
    <>better than either of the others. Development time in Rodinal 1+50+
    4
    <>grams/l of sodium ascorbate is about the same as for Rodinal 1+25.
    These
    <>comparisons were published in Photo Techniques in the article "Salt
    to
    <>Taste" which also showed some results of adding sodium chloride to
    D-23.
    <>
     
    nailer, Oct 26, 2005
    #11
  12. mmmmark

    UC Guest

    Precisely why you don't fill tires with oxygen.
     
    UC, Oct 27, 2005
    #12
  13. mmmmark

    UC Guest

    They why else would he consider adding the sulphite? That's the only
    reason to consider it.

    "Adding sulphite to Rodinal is like putting pure oxygen in your tires.
    Pointless and even counter-productive."

    Are you so fucking stupid you can't read?
     
    UC, Oct 27, 2005
    #13
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