hybrid system the hard way? including film modeling

Discussion in 'Darkroom Developing and Printing' started by Dale, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. Dale

    Dale Guest

    both empirical (easy way) and mechanistic (hard way) are supported
    mathematically by the ICC, but you could do your own system

    empirical characterization entails printing an equipment code value
    target to the "calibrated" equipment and relating it mathematically as a
    profile to the color of the profile connection space, usually cubic, a
    three dimensional profile for 3 colorant mediums, I know there are at
    least or there once was 4 colorant mediums from Fuji, I'll allow you to
    derive this from my post yourself, it is not hard if you know it

    even B&W colorants like silver halides have a hue that must be either
    maintained or translated in the ICC profile like a three colorant
    system, the eye is a three colorant system, I will allow you to derive
    B&W yourself, it is not hard if you know it

    with the advent of RIMM, ERIMM, and ROMM in ICC you can use digital
    manipulation for hybrid systems (you can search for these on the ICC
    site and they are from ProPhoto RGB according to wikipedia)

    so why would you want to do it the hard way, mechanistically?

    1) want to retain analog manipulation methods
    2) want to have analog manipulation algorithms within digital
    3) want to an analog capture of scene colorimetry
    4) multi-stage analog/hybrid systems do not calibrate
    (steady-state calibration is a prerequisite for profile characterization)
    5) want to design new analog equipment or manipulation
    6) want to design new sensitized media for a hybrid system
    ( a film program was around 5 million at Kodak 17 years ago)
    7) want to design a better analog RIMM, ERIMM or ROMM

    so how to do it the hard way?

    first, you will need a lot of information, the preferred way of getting
    this method is from analog media, equipment and software companies, as
    opposed to the investment yourself, some analog technology really
    requires single layer coatings to resolve crosstalk from spectral
    sensitivity and chemical processing, chemical processing can be just the
    way it is, process variability across or inside labs, or by design with
    things like DIR or DIAR couplers intended to reduce or optimize chemical

    Kodak has licensed some hybrid or analog technology to IMAX, the analog
    industry may be willing to deal at this point, additionally some analog
    and hybrid information may be patented, when I was at Kodak R&D many
    things were not patented due to other nations not respecting
    intellectual property, PhotoCD was patented as a last ditch effort to
    leverage capture film into digital systems

    so what type of information will you need?

    spectral sensitivity of capture mediums
    (for some systems digital capture sensitivity needs resolved to sensor
    and filtration)
    spectrophotometry of print (subtractive) output mediums
    (spectral data might have to be resolved to light source and filtration)
    spectroradiometry of display (additive) output mediums
    spectroradiometry of analog and hybrid printers
    (for some systems such radiometry of equipment needs resolved to light
    source and filtration)
    chemical colorant response to light of medium (DlogE)
    interimage, overall crosstalk of medium
    single layer coatings of mediums to resolve chemical versus sensitivity

    what are the use cases?
    1) captures (digital, hybrid or analog)(scene or like printing density)
    2) manipulations (digital, hybrid or analog)
    3) outputs (digital, hybrid or analog)

    spectral information is a one dimensional look-up table without crosstalk
    crosstalks are at least a linear matrix
    DlogE is best represented with a rational quadratic, higher math effects
    the central linearity, complete linearity effects toe and shoulder,
    highlight and shadow detail where dynamic range is low, this is still a
    one dimensional look-up table
    digital contrast is linear, gamma
    hybrid input/output contrast is calibrated for gamma in most cases
    multi-stage systems typically use some standard assumptions, mostly what
    equipment/software/measurement the systems engineer is working with

    any mathematician can take it from here to get all use cases

    if you want me to do a use case, just reply, I have a lot of time on my

    by the way, there is a book about "making" Kodak film, but not
    "designing" it, maybe the author might want to add a understandable
    compilation of this to his book
    Dale, Feb 26, 2014
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  2. Dale

    Dale Guest

    Kodak has a lot of things they could license in the area, or at least
    leverage the last days of film, probably not develop equipment, but
    maybe software

    1) a FORTRAN library of systems modeling
    2) a VAX and a portable (POSIX?) software called PLUS to implement the
    modeling in digital mathematic terms, and hybrid analog manipulation
    3) scene quality (not accuracy) QsubA, leading to better scene balance
    algorithms and "more attractive" images, implemented in consumer
    scan/print clas35 printer
    4) optimization of mathematics around ICC conversion resulting better
    scenes, manipulation and storage
    5) colorimetry patent from Eikonix
    Dale, Feb 26, 2014
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  3. Dale

    Dale Guest

    also might want to maintain multi-stage approvals that might span across
    labs and sites too
    Dale, Feb 26, 2014
  4. Dale

    Dale Guest

    you can translate the spectral data above to CIE chromaticity
    coordinates or tristimulus values if you prefer rotations and
    adjustments in an independent space, compatible with ICC and digital imaging
    Dale, Feb 26, 2014
  5. Dale

    Dale Guest

    look, I was just a young Imaging Scientist at Kodak for 9 years, I was
    exposed to many things and in retrospect could have and maybe should
    have been able to utilize them, yes I worked in RA4 paper testing,
    Consumer C-41 process engineering, Professional C-41 process
    engineering, and Professional Hybrid Systems Integration, I did not have
    an actual Imaging Science job, but always had my eye on the science
    others showed me or exposed in a way I could search for

    there are many ex Kodak Imaging Scientists who are consultants now who
    could talk to the good job this author did on film building tools, but
    did not include much besides DlogE as the application and research of
    such film building tools, and the systems integration involved at some
    point between Film builders, Imaging Scientists and Systems Engineers to
    design the film to fit a particular system paradigm or system ideal

    I think I covered a generalization of hybrid systems color development
    and utilization in analog systems, I could do the math for a particular
    use case if someone wanted me to prove myself

    but why not have the likes of Ed Giorgianni, David McDowell, Bob
    Collette, etc. put these things into the author's book and the ICC?
    Lots of Photo Tech people the author could talk to. But not at PhotoTech
    since they tore it down, building 69 was built in 1972

    include all Kodak;s QsubA picture quality considerations, like
    sharpness, grain, exposure, etc., and all the design and building to
    achieve them, include a discussion of "good enough color/appearance",
    "more attractive color/appearance, I know QsubA is only a metric of the
    final result, not a set of metrics or system of achieving the final result

    ICC will always have some chemistry involved in digital, filters are
    made of colorants which are chemical, even your central processing unit
    of your computer and, photons are material chemical particles" and the
    necessity of starting with "accurate color/appearance"

    a good thing to start with might be the attempt at co-optimization of
    C-41 film and RA-4 paper, and the failure thereof even with the
    assistance of hybrid tools, and this is only a two-stage multiple stage
    system, don't know if a system paradigm or ideal paradigm was used
    Dale, Feb 26, 2014
  6. Dale

    Dale Guest

    okay, photons do not have mass

    maybe the distinction between Physical Chemistry and Particle Physics is
    a consideration of mass,, maybe there does not have to be a distinction

    electrons have mass, etc.

    I got an A+ in both undergraduate Physical Chemistry 1 and 2
    my best and most enjoyable classes, and in my opinion a very elegant
    description of nature, undergraduate though and not mature enough to say
    whether PChem or Physics needs a distinction without some study,
    wikipedia is something I really like
    Dale, Feb 26, 2014
  7. Dale

    Dale Guest

    if this was a consumer pursuit it would have been good enough with scene
    balance algorithms, perhaps as simple as white point balance

    no less editing work was achieved with this "as far as I know"

    I do know they replaced the RA4 co-optimized paper with their hybrid RA4
    paper when systems testing showed enough results to simplify things with
    one product for analog and hybrid
    Dale, Feb 26, 2014
  8. Dale

    Dale Guest

    maybe they are positioning their software efforts in open systems and

    maybe they are not developing new media, colorants, filters, etc. or
    maybe they feel standards are mature

    maybe they do not have much equipment going on

    so there is less need for real estate to integrate and verify such in
    "open systems" and standards,

    they got rid of their large Elmgrove equipment facility, they got rid of
    their large Henrietta? Training facility, they may be utilizing other
    places like West Kodak, Hawkeye, Lincoln, Gerber, etc. or maybe even
    their Cinesite or other plants like Matchprint

    they disbanded the Billerica/Lowell/Mass. (Eikonix) color management
    group, some people here would make good consultants, along with
    Rochester people who collaborated together on ICC hybrid standards and
    the author's book

    less taxes on commercial and industrial (even residential) if undeveloped

    sometimes real estate is more valuable undeveloped

    maybe these are the reasons they took the complex down

    I used to be a part time real estate agent, only had a few residential
    successful deals, but I had access to MLS and found a house in a village
    type environment in a west side suburb I didn't need good credit for
    Dale, Feb 26, 2014
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