I' m in color management HELL! PLease advise!

Discussion in '35mm Cameras' started by Viken Karaguesian, Jun 30, 2004.

  1. Hi all,

    I'm in Color-Management HELL and I need some advice. I'm trying to scan my
    slides into my computer and am having difficulty getting decent results
    matching the scan to the slide. I know a perfect match is not really
    possible, but these scans are consistently dark and lackluster. Before I
    continue, here's some pertinent info about my system: Windows XP Pro,
    Minolta Scan Dual II film scanner, Epson 1670 flatbed scanner, Panasonic
    Monitor, Adobe Photoshop 6, and Jasc Paint Shop Pro 8. I'm *not* a newcomer
    to photo and imaging but I can't seem to get this right. Before I blame my
    equipment, I want to make sure I'm doing the color management right.

    Here's my understanding of how things should work: If the monitor's color
    profile is set as the default profile in Windows XP Color Management, you
    should be able to turn off color management in all other software and get
    consistent results from scanner to image software and other applications.
    This is how my system is set. I have my monitor set as the default profile.
    I have turned off color management in my scanner software and in my imaging
    apps. Is this wrong? I'm working in the sRGB color space. Should I be
    loading a different ICC profile or colorspace.

    But my scans are coming out dark and lackluster. What goes in as a nice,
    well exposed slide gets scanned as dark and dull and all the brilliance is
    gone. Manipulating them is becoming an exercise in frustration.

    How should I set my color management?? Here are some things that I'm not
    sure about:

    - What's the difference between sRGB, Color match RGB, Adobe RGB, etc? I
    have a vague idea, but I'm not sure.
    - What's the proper color space for images that will be uploaded to a
    website?
    - What the default Gamma for windows, 1.8? 2.2?
    - How is Lightness different from Brightness?
    - what is a color channel?

    Now I feel like I'm ranting. Perhaps I need to read a good book? Can someone
    recommend a book (or website) that's not too simple yet not too complicated?
    Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

    Viken Karaguesian
     
    Viken Karaguesian, Jun 30, 2004
    #1
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  2. Viken Karaguesian

    Alan Browne Guest

    comp.periphs.scanners , and perhaps c.p.printers is the place to
    get this question out to.

    www.scantips.com may have additional supporting info.
     
    Alan Browne, Jul 1, 2004
    #2
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  3. Viken Karaguesian

    bmoag Guest

    I suspect the scanner is not set up appropriately and you are starting off
    with wrong exposures. Also if you are scanning Kodachrome you may have
    problems because some scanners just cannot adequately illuminate Kodachrome
    because of its denser emulsion.
    Even if you think you understand the scanner instructions recheck the
    manual.
    If you are using Photoshop color management properly then once the scan
    enters the PS foodchain it will be color managed based on the original scan
    characteristics and the profiles for your monitor and printer. Some scanners
    employ what their manufacturer calls color management or color matching that
    can drastically affect the image quality, sometimes for the better but
    usually for worse.
    For scanning slides you may find the investment in Vuescan worthwhile. You
    can download a demo for free.
     
    bmoag, Jul 1, 2004
    #3
  4. Viken Karaguesian

    Tim Guest

    Use the link to www.scantips.com above it will explain and give you
    other links. However all hte colour management in the world will be
    useless if your system is not calibrated. Your monitor can and
    probably has been adjusted for coulour, contract, brightness etc
    already.
     
    Tim, Jul 1, 2004
    #4
  5. Viken Karaguesian

    Anoni Moose Guest

    Actually, you're not really using color management much of any at all
    which is your problem.

    Things like Adobe RGB or sRGB are "imaginary" color spaces that, say,
    a file uses to represent colors by the numbers in the file. Colors
    themselves are "outside" one's computer in the "light domain".

    Your monitor profile is used by supporting programs (such as photoshop)
    to display those numbers on your screen properly. A generic profile
    is a good start, but if you want accuracy you might want to look into
    things like colorvision's Spyder to make a custom profile (on a
    regular basis) and to tweek your monitor (calibration as opposed to
    profiling). See colorvision.com . A profile gives information in how
    to convert the numbers in the file into the same color in the display
    device. Tell twenty people to buy you a "red" flower, you may get
    quite a few different colors. A profile converts your word "red" to
    the listener's concept of the word in his brain (may read "slightly
    orange'sh red to him). That way you both are understanding the
    same color.

    Your scanner profile is used by the scanning software to convert the
    colors detected by your scanner to the colors in a file's colorspace
    (say, AdobeRGB).

    When you print, the printer's profile is used to convert the file's colorspace
    (like AdobeRGB) into the colorspace of the printer.

    In other words, the colorspace you use (like adobeRGB) could be looked
    at as the file's colorspace and profiles are needed to convert data into
    that file's colorspace or out of the the file's colorspace. Out includes
    printers, your monitor screen, a film recorder, etc.

    More or less.

    There's some nice papers, etc at http://www.color.org/ which is
    the ICC of .ICC. :)

    Mike

    P.S. - Yes it's a pain in the b*** to get everything right, but it's really
    cool once set up right. :)
     
    Anoni Moose, Jul 1, 2004
    #5
  6. Viken Karaguesian

    Nick Guest

    Turning off colour management in your scanner s/w would be a bad idea
    (assuming it is calibrated and works correctly.) The original scanned image
    needs an input colour profile, whatever colour space you end up working
    with.
     
    Nick, Jul 1, 2004
    #6
  7. I havent used a scanner for years now... but...

    One thing I always thought was rather silly was they didnt come with
    some form of profiling, I didnt realise this till I purchased
    CorelDraw which included a card with a nice picture on it that you
    scanned, and then used the profile software to then compare it with a
    "correct tiff" and then worked out if the colours were off so it could
    adjust for it.

    Would be nice if the scanners came with a card, and a bit of software
    to do the same... They (at least the old ones) did tend to have a lot
    of latitude, and even varied over time so it was always worth turning
    them on at least 5 mins before using and then re-calibrating after a
    couple of mins use. (god I must be showing my age by now, lol)
     
    Jonathan Wilson, Jul 2, 2004
    #7
  8. Viken Karaguesian

    Anoni Moose Guest

    Yes! When I opened it and saw that picture, I wondered what the heck it
    was for and filed it away. Much later when I discovered "color
    management" and *WANTED* that image, I couldn't find what I did with it.
    Know I didn't throw it away, I'm sure it's in a safe place, but it's
    TOO safe. :)

    I have other ways to calibrate the scanner now, but it's amazing that I
    had what I wanted in hand, and didn't know it. :)

    Mike

    P.S. - And I still don't know where it is. When I find it, it'll probably
    be faded. :)
     
    Anoni Moose, Jul 2, 2004
    #8
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